| Renzo - 88.113.232.*** |
060321 @ 22:51:01 |
This really shows how bad is the current NQR 3 cup system. The
difference
between clans can be as high as div3 vs div5 (based on eql3) so it's
no wonder
that some people refuse to play.
Admins really need to fix
this in the
next NQR. |
| |
|
| Anza - 80.222.234.*** |
060321 @ 22:53:56 |
| For some reason I have a feeling that they are not interested |
| |
|
| JKova - 80.221.17.*** |
060321 @ 23:12:55 |
| of course we are interested in developing the system. thanks for the
feedback! |
| |
|
| kingiz - 80.221.25.*** |
060321 @ 23:25:20 |
NQR 3 cup system is bad? I'd say that's an understatement. More like,
"its
pathetic and suffers from horribly bad design just like Microsoft(tm)
(r) (c)
software". The point of the cup system really should be putting clans
on a
similar level to play against themselves. Clearly the cup system fails
to do
this.
Miserably.
So, is this a known flaw (read:
just pure
ignorance from the admins) or just careless design?
We
didn't want to
waste our time "playing" 20 more minutes on a match everybody knew how
it was
going to end. Nobody wouldn't have enjoyed it, not the demolition
crew and
certainly not us. QW should be fun. This wasn't fun, and I wouldn't
call this
charade QW.
|
| |
|
| kingiz - 80.221.25.*** |
060321 @ 23:27:38 |
| ..um.. the last sentence should have been "this wasn't fun and I'd
call this
a charade, not qw".. you should get the point anyway. |
| |
|
| HighlandeR - 83.20.200.*** |
060322 @ 00:17:31 |
i understand fuk's point, not much fun to play for both dc and fuk
here.
this design of nqr needs serious tweaking.
|
| |
|
| HighlandeR - 83.20.200.*** |
060322 @ 00:33:38 |
ps
fuk = fak
sorry :D
|
| |
|
| gaz - 81.6.217.*** |
060322 @ 08:54:03 |
The idea of NQR9 was to do something different to EQL by focusing on a
playoff
competition rather than a league. This system seemed like a decent way
of
helping us place the relevent clans into 6 playoff competitions
without a
lengthy league stage.
I'm all for constructive criticism but
all I see
above is kingiz slagging off those who have spent time and effort
arranging NQR,
without suggesting an alternative system.
I guess it goes to
show that
it's easier to whine, bitch and criticise than it is to take the
inititiative
and show some creativity. |
| |
|
| Anza - 80.222.234.*** |
060322 @ 11:12:16 |
| Gaz, I can see what you are trying to say, only one thing kinda
wonders me. Why
take clans from lower divs at all to your league as they don't stand a
chance?
If you want to focus to playoffs then just drop all clans that would
not get
there anyway... And, also Highlander pointed out that your system is
not
foolproof, dont take it all on perv (kingiz). |
| |
|
| gaz - 195.72.182.*** |
060322 @ 11:32:37 |
At least Highlander put it nicely. Kingiz said "pure ignorance from
the
admins", "failed miserably" and "it's pathetic and suffers from
horribly
bad design".
And your argument about dropping all clans that
won't
get to playoffs is also flawed - why not just drop all but the best 2
and just
play the final?
Anyway, your first game was quite close, and
I dare say
your others will be as well. This is why we have the 'amateur' playoff
anyway. |
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 11:39:23 |
Ok, I'll give you some suggestions. Actually I thought my little
speech would
have given you some directions, but it would seem that all the
implications
totally missed you.
I'll reward your comments about my
"whining"
with very simple sentences so don't need to think what I'm
saying.
Three cups is not clearly enough to cover all skill
levels.
Gold cup is for gurus, silver is for pros, and then there's all the
rest,
including those who don't *quite* make it on the silver level and
those who
just play for fun. Clearly, there's a need for "metal" cup or
something like
it. We've played prac against other bronze clans from different
groups, and in
those games the skill levels are somewhat equal. Just look at the
bronze cup
group b for example. Chosen is _sure_ to win it. That is just an
example.
I'm all for the rules and the playof f competition
style,
that's not what I'm talking about. It's great that people have time to
organize quakeworld competition such as this.
Given that a
EQL div3
clan plays with div4 and div5 clans in NQR, is just plain stupid. You
simply
can't argue against it. And if you think saying the facts out loud is
whining,
well, there's very little to discuss.
|
| |
|
| gaz - 195.72.182.*** |
060322 @ 12:03:07 |
Well now you've made some suggestions and written some constructive
criticism.
Hurray for diplomacy. It's not that hard, huh?
As JKova said
we are
interested in improving things and will note your comments for next
time.
Ultimately NQR is NOT a league like EQL with "divisions", just 3 tiers
that
aim to capture 3 rudimentary skill groups, and I think it does that to
a good
degree. It would be much worse for clans like yourselves if we had
gone with our
original idea of a Smackdown rip-off. |
| |
|
| Anza - 80.222.234.*** |
060322 @ 12:10:50 |
I guess that this means that QW is not any more a game that one plays
whatever
the result, like "we take any ol' beating, we just want to PLAY
SOME".
-
Hmm, so does it mean that QW stopped being better than
sex?
Seriously,
maybe we just were wondering how admins could have thought that this
would work
in the first place... |
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 12:16:12 |
No, it's not hard :D to tell the truth it made me feel good about
myself! Whee!
Anyway, my point was that playoff system is great, but "just 3 tiers"
really
don't scale enough. Yeah, I know what you are thinking; "well learn
how to
play, damn you!".. well we are getting there! But it's really
frustrating to
play against someone with such a wide gap in skills. When we signed up
I thought
that cup system would really offer some compensation and good games,
but in this
particular game it really didn't.
I'm not blaming the nqr
admins
because we suck, only wondering how a situation like this is even
possible.
It's a hard task trying to arrange the teams equally, I know, but come
on:)
I'm sure you can do better next time.
|
| |
|
| gaz - 195.72.182.*** |
060322 @ 12:16:44 |
We were always expecting some games with big scores like this. It
doesn't mean
we shouldn't have bothered. If it was a league with 3 divisions where
everyone
plays everyone else, then sure, something would be badly wrong to have
this kind
of situation regularly.
But the fact is that relatively few
games will
be "rapescores" and that the lower-skilled clans will get a chance to
play vs
other clans of their level in the playoffs.
We made it clear
that it
wasn't going to be a league before the signups opened, so surely you
could have
guessed that you might have to play some clans that are much better
than you? We
expected that to happen, but thought that the 'carrot' of the amateur
playoffs
would be enough to keep clans playing through it. |
| |
|
| menth0l - 212.68.8.*** |
060322 @ 12:30:12 |
| Placing the clans in the 3 tiers was no easy task and we tried to do
it to our
best ability. There will always be rapes in every QW league. That's
just the
way it is with skill differences being so huge in the game. This was
just one
game and i'm sure you'll have some nice and even games this season
too. |
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 12:58:00 |
Since I'm such an asshole, I can't resist to paste this from the
irc..
13:45 ( [ServeMe]08) -qw- ui - #a2k.kurwa : what the
fuck is
happening to the league system? seems like div5 clans having div2
players on
their roster is becoming standard behavior. someone fix the divisions,
plz
:<
while this isn't actually the same issue, it's
something
similar. I've noticed this aswell, there are some really good players
playing
on the bronze level. Not only the clans are misplaced, but so are some
of the
players ;)
The general opinion seems to be (not in the fak
only, I'm
talking about what most of the players are saying) that only the
silver cup is
actually a well made one, all the others are more or less .. well, not
exactly
failures, but "not-so-well-planned" concerning players and
clans.
Ok,
flame me now! I have my fireproof vest on.
|
| |
|
| gaz - 195.72.182.*** |
060322 @ 13:14:25 |
| Well, we never place 'players', just 'clans'. One swallow doesn't make
a
summer, as we say here in England, and similarly, one good player in a
bronze
cup team does not necessarily make them a silver cup team. Look at
Jagarna, who
have Mogge, a good div 2 player in EQL2, and they are still losing
each game. |
| |
|
| Hagge - 83.233.145.*** |
060322 @ 13:26:40 |
| lol you shouldn't say anything about div5 clans having div2 players
since you
also have that in the clan ur playing in, kingiz? :) |
| |
|
| Renzo - 88.113.232.*** |
060322 @ 13:34:26 |
There is still difference between "div2 player" and "a player that
plays in
div2". Look at me for example. I play in div2 clan, but I haven't
played 4on4
more than 150 rounds EVER.
Why do you think I suck so badly
in 4on4
that I don't bother playing other than pracs. Now you need to
reconsider
Anza's div-skills, because he's maxed out at div3 (no offence anza,
but
that's how I think). |
| |
|
| Anza - 80.222.234.*** |
060322 @ 13:42:38 |
| Actually I'm maxed out in div4 after playing 9 years almost daily. And
I'm not
kidding. |
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 13:55:37 |
umm.. who are you referring to? anza? div2? :D oh christ. I can't stop
laughing.
You are acting like I'm making this stuff up and
whining
about nothing, even though I'm not even whining! Trust me, you don't
WANT to
see me whine ;) I'm just expressing my (and other people's)
opinions.
As you can see, there are people (so it's not all
about me!)
who really are (somewhat) unhappy about the way things have been
organized and
that's it. I'm only letting the admins know about things, as they seem
welcome
critisism and are willing to do something. I'm sure the more
complaints they
get, the more they will react by improving the system so we can have
good time
with the game we like. At the end of the day we (players) are the
winners by
having interesting matches.
I think the best way to measure
a
successfully organized season is the amount of "complaints" or
"whining".
The less you get them, the better you've achieved in creating
something which
people really enjoy.
This only makes admins more aware of
recent
trends, such as really good players playing on a WAY too low
level.
And
honestly, anza sucks big time :) mr tp0!
|
| |
|
| Renzo - 88.113.232.*** |
060322 @ 14:04:58 |
But tp0 (or ffa) is so much fun!
Teamplay is nothing.
Aim
is
everything.
Obey your ffa skills! |
| |
|
| HighlandeR - 150.254.194.*** |
060322 @ 14:13:17 |
maybe admins should go even farther with the changes and make the cup
system
look really like a cup system.
it is: low-div clans play a
group/bracket
games. winners advance to next level where higher-div clans join and
group/bracket games begin again.
about 3 levels of that kind shoud
be
enough.
that would mean tho, that the season doesnt start /end for
all teams
at the same time. lower div clans start it sooner (just like in the
footbal cup
systems - uefa cup/national cups)
|
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 14:16:36 |
Oh, and Gaz; I didn't mean that one or two player qualifies the whole
clan as a
silver cup level, but more like it's quite an advantage.
Yes, it's
very hard to see these things beforehand, but as more people are
noticing it, I
can't be full of bullshit. This could be an annoying problem (even
more
annoying than I am) if quite experinced players just join clans on low
levels to
have easy games.
So all I'm asking, just keep an eye out for
known
good players who are being idiots by having easy victories and use a
couple true
bronze level players as a cover.
|
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 14:26:36 |
I like the highlander's suggestion. It's already proven to be a
working system
as it is really being used in football. It makes the season longer,
but hey,
atleast when the games really begin, they should be much more
interesting.
|
| |
|
| HighlandeR - 150.254.194.*** |
060322 @ 14:53:39 |
season doesnt have to be longer, coz there'll be less games to play
for each
team. Just like with football league and cup system lasting more/less
same
long.
|
| |
|
| Renzo - 88.113.232.*** |
060322 @ 15:00:23 |
| Even the heavens scream when kingiz is playing! |
| |
|
| billy - 213.134.160.*** |
060322 @ 15:01:46 |
| oh where oh where have the smackdown times gone? where noone whined
everyday
after losing a game 200:40 |
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 15:17:51 |
<sarcasm>
umm yeah, you just hit the spot there, billy.
God I
enjoy when people really get my point between the lines, it's always
so great
to discuss with great minds such as yours. I give up, the only reason
why *I*
*alone* *whine* is indeed a one match, not the whole concept of a
system which
obviously has a room for improvement(s). You really nailed the point
with your
overpowering wits and I have nothing more to add. Damn, what an
insightful
comment which leaves me naked with a fact that we lost and the only
thing left
is to whine about trivial
matters.
</sarcasm>
(I think
you really need those metatags)
|
| |
|
| Vertigo - 157.24.219.*** |
060322 @ 15:37:13 |
Clans agree to follow the tourney system when they sign up. If the
tourney
system doesnt please a clan, they can always stay out of the
tourney.
If you got a brilliant concept for a QW tourney,
make it
happen yourself! This is what the NQR crew has done. You can do it
too.
It's an impossible task to form 100% equal groups, where
every
single round would end with a smallish 50-frags margin. Every single
person who
has been organizing a tourney knows this as a fact.
40-210 is
a normal
score of a QW round. Losing is a part of gaming.
There's
also nothing
unusual to have bad losers in a QW tourney. I guess the NQR's
experienced crew
will know how to handle this FAK-feedback properly. |
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 15:49:11 |
Ok, for starters, I don't speak for entire team of FAK. Please do not
confuse
the rest of the clan with me. If you think you can't handle the critic
(I think
highlander made a good proposition) and feel like I'm whining here
without a
cause, you are welcome to ban me from NQR.
Don't look at
the scores
too tightly, even demolition crew didn't play the game with 100% of
their skill
after the 10 minute mark. Also, you are ignoring highlanders comment
totally. It
*is* indeed a impossible thing to form 100% equal groups, I'm not
denying that
fact. Actually I wonder if you bothered to read the whole thread
before you
started writing your comment.
There have been suggestions to
make
things better, and to deny that there's anything to improve is nothing
more
than arrogance.
IMHO this case is closed, the admins have
been
informed about things I feel can be improved, and if you want to take
your
revenge on my horrible-oh-so-horrible words on me, go ahead.
|
| |
|
| Vertigo - 157.24.219.*** |
060322 @ 16:04:17 |
| I am not an admin, just a player in NQR. |
| |
|
| gaz - 195.72.182.*** |
060322 @ 16:04:44 |
"Ok, for starters, I don't speak for entire team of FAK. Please do not
confuse
the rest of the clan with me. If you think you can't handle the critic
(I think
highlander made a good proposition) and feel like I'm whining here
without a
cause, you are welcome to ban me from NQR. "
Likewise, don't
confuse
Vertigo, billy or Hagge for an NQR admin. |
| |
|
| kingiz - 217.119.37.*** |
060322 @ 16:13:30 |
I'm not confusing them as admins :) never have, never will. See, I
have this
thing called a browser and one can click links with it, ie. the one on
the right
which lists the crew! whee! I was talking on a general
level.
(I know
my style of expressing myself is quite rude and I'm just waiting for
the day
when I get my ass kicked seriously IRL aswell, but that's
life.)
|
| |
|
| gaz - 195.72.182.*** |
060322 @ 16:14:06 |
| The way you were writing scanned as though you were talking to them as
admins. |
| |
|
| Ari - 81.197.136.*** |
060322 @ 16:53:00 |
well, if i remember correctly, we raped dc a while ago and we are
playing in
div3 so i just think they had good day on that day and shouldn't be
moved
to div3 :< and yes, anza is div4 max <3 |
| |
|
| Hooraytio - 212.214.218.*** |
060322 @ 17:00:15 |
"Just look at the bronze cup group b for example. Chosen is _sure_ to
win
it."
kingiz, what do you base that on?
|
| |
|
| Rohva - 84.250.190.*** |
060322 @ 17:02:06 |
| How can some1 whine so much :< |
| |
|
| kingiz - 80.221.25.*** |
060322 @ 18:10:09 |
hooraytio, just a hunch. I know a few players there, and comparing it
to the
rest of the clans in the group that's the feeling I got.We'll see (and
if I'm
wrong its just a conspiracy against me!).
I'm not pointing
fingers
(atleast that's not my intention), god how touchy people are.
Unbelievable how
much attention one gets with a few strong opinions with arguments. I
guess it
was a touchy subject.
First I was (with cause) flamed since I
didn't
give any suggestions. When I did, the attitude against me in a group
of players
was along the lines "well fock off, do your own goddamn league!".
Sigh.
Brilliant.
"thou shalt not criticize!"
rohva
:D
|
| |
|
| Hooraytio - 212.214.218.*** |
060322 @ 18:32:27 |
| i just wondered, i hope you are right =) |
| |
|
| lib - 213.100.62.*** |
060322 @ 18:39:16 |
| anyone who has seen us in a2k2 (ex kurwas) play would know we're about
to take
bronze-B by storm. out winning percentage is closing in on double
digits! |
| |
|
| Vertigo - 157.24.219.*** |
060322 @ 19:27:14 |
Touchy? This was an intresting subject and I wanted to throw my five
cents in.
Its quite sad that plain opinions are taken as whine or "drama", which
seems
to be quite popular word nowadays.
Long live the
conversation, I say! |
| |
|
| Hagge - 83.233.145.*** |
060323 @ 14:29:41 |
| there's no doubt that anza is one of the most skilled players as of
today! it
almost makes you suspect that it's in fact his kid playing for him!?!?
omg plz
ban anza! ban kingiz as well for all the whine that comes out of his
uuuh
keyboard? :( |
| |
|
| Hagge - 83.233.145.*** |
060323 @ 14:29:51 |
| kingiz <3 |
| |
|
| Anza - 80.222.234.*** |
060403 @ 16:43:52 |
| Hagge PLZ my kid says that QW is too childish for him :<< |
| |
|
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