|
|
|
|
|
|
Disciplinary measures 080304
|
|
|
|
Two days ago a game played between "Bear Beer Balalaika" and "Bad Boys" led to some raised eyebrows among spectators and admins. After some discussions and talks with members of the clans involved, we've come to a conclusion about how to deal with what happened.
Firstly, Bad Boys had a player on all 3 maps called "Record". That player is signed up to the roster, so that didn't directly cause any problems. However, the player known as "Record" actually messaged the admins during the game to notify the admins that it wasn't actually him playing, but someone faking under his name. Bad Boys had already made two in-season additions, so they decided to let the new player play with the nick of one of the already signed up players. Obviously, this is not something we can tolerate.
We as admins are hoping for an active season, so if clans suffer from inactivity due to not being able to add any more members, I'm sure a solution can be found. Trying to go around us by violating the rules however, is not an option.
Bear Beer Balalaika on the other hand possibly only violated the rules very minorly, but possibly also did something ban-worthy. For the obvious reason of so called "ghosting", clans that play with voice communication are, as stated in the rules, supposed to notify the admins so these can impose restrictions on spectators. Bottom line: Clans using voice communication should NOT have spectators on the server while they are playing. Although QuakeWorld seems to benefit from a mature scene, and although we believe that the vast majority of players aren't even interested in cheating, we simply cannot take the risk. Bear Beer Balalaika not only used voice communication without notifying us about it, they also had a player spectating the game while they were playing. On top of that, and this is where it possibly gets ugly, the spectator in question showed a very weird behaviour of who he was tracking. Luckily the spectator in question was connected to the server via Qizmo and since all spectator slots were taken, someone observed the spectator and actually made a demo of who was being tracked as soon as he got suspicious. The recorded demo can be downloaded here.
Aside from the fact that accusing a clan of ghosting is a very harsh accusation, we are also aware that this demo is no proof. However, it doesn't make the clan look good. Bear Beer Balalaika continue to plead their innocence, but admit that we as admins are in a difficult position here. Furthermore, they have said that they will accept any sort of punishment and understand that there will have to be restrictions in the future.
As for the consequences: Although we are not in posession of undeniable proof, we have decided to "void" the game between Bear Beer Balalaika and Bad Boys. This means that the game has practically been canceled, without a chance of replay. Bottom line: neither of the clans will get any points from the played game. On top of that, both clans have had 3 points deducted. If Bear Beer Balalaika are really innocent, then we can do nothing but apologise for this. If not, this is hopefully a strong enough warning to not try it again.
Aside from the above mentioned case, this might also be a good opportunity to start discussing about possible solutions for future games. How could the issue be controlled or the risk minimised? Have you made any experiences, perhaps in other games? Feedback is more than welcome, as usual.
//NQR staff
67 comments | Post new
|
|
|
| willgurht - 213.114.133.*** |
080305 @ 08:09:53 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I know this wont work, but don't allow specs. Either not at all or only for
teams who doesnt use gibbage.mine.nu as their vent server.
Specs can
still watch thru qtv with 10sec delay. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Åke Vader - 90.224.15.*** |
080305 @ 08:13:32 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yep, the solution is already there; QTV <3 |
|
| |
|
|
|
| cpe - 84.245.7.*** |
080305 @ 08:15:28 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
or let one of the admin into ventrillo |
|
| |
|
|
|
| hoder - 80.216.134.*** |
080305 @ 08:16:46 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Since there is QTV only solution i can think of would be demand acces to observe
the ts or vent channel in use, for the ppl that have the stamina.. Not to join,
but to observe when opponents want to.
Dont want to not beeing able to spec
big games when i feel like it.
(i rather allow ghosting then disallow specs) |
|
| |
|
|
|
| hoder - 80.216.134.*** |
080305 @ 08:17:23 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
oh, didnt know about delay :> heh |
|
| |
|
|
|
| hoder - 80.216.134.*** |
080305 @ 08:18:54 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
mayby should be more like 20 secs though..
(sry for many replys) |
|
| |
|
|
|
| soma - omg.hai.2.u |
080305 @ 08:19:23 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
cpe: That is actually something we thought of, but it's also an incredibly
annoying job. I can spontaneously think of 800-1000 other ways I'd rather spend
my time than sitting on some ventrilo server to listen to guys talking about
QuakeWorld. :) |
|
| |
|
|
|
| lib - 213.100.62.*** |
080305 @ 08:25:06 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
so who was this new guy? cocksane? :D |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Åke Vader - 90.224.15.*** |
080305 @ 08:28:30 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Exactly. Make the life of admins as painless as possible. To babysit every game
of a clan that use some kind of voice communication is a huge task and a waste
of time.
Increase the QTV delay and it will be fine? Only concern is
that some odd servers aren't QTV enabled yet i *think*. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Hedgepig - 194.0.77.*** |
080305 @ 08:38:05 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Indeed. Banning specs outright is the only way to eliminate potential ghosting.
If I'm using comms I don't want to have to stop in the middle of the game to
ask specs to leave if someone joins up. And what's to stop clans lying about
not using comms?
A good feature in EZQuake would be the "speclock" like
in Quake 3. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Zaq - 80.216.0.*** |
080305 @ 08:42:56 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
so make qtv worth using then. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Åke Vader - 90.224.15.*** |
080305 @ 08:44:02 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
What would suck with QTV only spectating is in the event of a timeout from one
of the active players, then you want a fifth player to jump right in
immediately. With a delay that loss will be even more significant. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Mingle - 88.112.67.*** |
080305 @ 10:18:01 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ouh, this sounds ugly. It's shame if 3b have turn on to this kind of behavior.
But can this be the one reason why 3b have managed so well in silver league so
far? I hope this kind of behavior have been only in this one game... |
|
| |
|
|
|
| sassa - 85.225.115.*** |
080305 @ 10:57:06 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
use QTV only at clan games? |
|
| |
|
|
|
| willgurht - 213.114.133.*** |
080305 @ 10:59:24 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
spectatorlock and pause/timeout option incase someone drops. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Renzo - 91.152.123.*** |
080305 @ 11:13:46 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Should we disable spectator slots already and make games speccable only through
QTV?
But I really must comment on this voice thing. There is actually
NOTHING you can prove or do if there is a private voice going on with spectators
or qizmo cams on the server. It's just that damn hard or actually
impossible.
Even if they would be using autotrack, you could still be
one of the observers and tell all the time where the enemy powerupped player is
going and if the powerup died or not. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| molgrum - 85.24.184.*** |
080305 @ 14:27:35 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can see the positive effects with locking the spectator slots to 0: No/minimal
ghosting, less bandwidth used, better viewing experience.
But I can also see
the negative effects: The timeout messages having the same 10 seconds delay as
any message so players cannot instantly jump in, chatting with ingame players
not possible, lots of ingame spectator commands not being available, not all
clients supported (unless you watch through FTEQTV).
The list is
probably incomplete, but that's my view of it at this point. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| spoinka - 78.52.129.*** |
080305 @ 16:41:55 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
sr is ghosting all the time!
i have dozens of prove-demos ... just cant find
them! |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Åke Vader - 80.244.193.*** |
080305 @ 18:31:40 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's a bit offtopic, but feel free to elaborate on the "worth using" part, Zaq. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| fog - 213.134.126.*** |
080305 @ 21:56:45 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
First I thought of something to see that a player from a clan only specs his own
people (which I think noone has a problem with?).. But then I realized that it's
only to connect as a fake and spec if you wanna cheat (hey smart of me
10points?).
If someone from my team would tell me things about the
opponent-team in comms while playing NQR-game I would honestly tell him to shut
the f* up. Hopefully the majority of clans would do this too. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Hooraytio - 89.160.23.*** |
080305 @ 22:44:15 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
well serverlogs are useful for checking who faked fog |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Lim - 79.136.38.*** |
080305 @ 23:18:31 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
A delay from the spectators view is the only way to go, any other workaround
would have flaws.
...well maybe banning the russian nation would work. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| - 85.24.184.*** |
080305 @ 23:21:20 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Comment edited by molgrum @ 03-05-08, 14:22:16 |
|
| |
|
|
|
| B1aze - 212.5.80.*** |
080305 @ 23:38:39 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, when u use ventrilo, u can save "demo" of all communications.
So, may
be force teams who use vent, upload this demo after match?
So anyone can
check if they used more ppl that played.
Dunno if this way will work with
TS. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| shaga - 91.155.212.*** |
080306 @ 00:03:04 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
As I've suggested earlier..
Would be very cool ezquake to have VoIP,
like automatically giving a team a channel to speak and not allowing specs to
hear it. There's no clear solution, people can still use also ventrilo but this
just seemed a good place to throw out my idea. :)
No need for external
programs. This has been used in most of the new multiplayer games. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| zero - 213.16.120.*** |
080306 @ 00:51:18 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
SPK STOP GIVIN AWAY THE TRUTH OF SR TACTIC:( IF YOU WONT STOP WE GONNA HIRE YOU! |
|
| |
|
|
|
| soma - omg.hai.2.u |
080306 @ 01:06:09 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
B1aze: In TS it's also possible to record the voice communication. Nice idea by
the way! |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Hooraytio - 89.160.23.*** |
080306 @ 02:16:16 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
best solution? just do not cheat, simple as that |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Paranoid - 79.165.8.*** |
080306 @ 02:40:56 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
u cant prove 3B cheated... and Fakenicking is worth disqualifying... |
|
| |
|
|
|
| retired record - 87.206.240.*** |
080306 @ 02:47:13 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
clanleaders of bad boys werent smart enough to use fakenicker when i was online
despite i told them i cant play that day. 30 mins later i entered the game to
see their game and bah im (1)record cause there was already one record
playing... and unfortunately admin on spec saw that... piteous |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Mingle - 88.115.39.*** |
080306 @ 03:05:23 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paranoid: And you would say, that bubliks spectator behavior was normal? And
maybe you also think that using aimbot is ok, if your connection is poor and
other wise enemies would get too much advantage of it? Plz.. You can't get
better prove of cheating that recorded demo. I think that every one who have
played qw even for few years can say there is something weird going on in thta
demo... |
|
| |
|
|
|
| niomic - 62.78.219.*** |
080306 @ 03:50:20 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Spec delay is simply the easiest way of going about this.
Nobody is
going to listen to hours and hours of voicecomms and you can't prove who is
talking unless you know the players personally. Even if it was just 4 voices,
one of those could be the ghost and one player would just stfu.
I
really wish delayed (20-30s) QTV (ez or fte) was on all actively used servers
and its useability and functions matched those of speccing. This meaning
communication with players during prewar and possibility to maybe see
spectatorlist from players pov for mixes etc. Then simply take off spectator
slots altogether. It's too much overhead for someone with rcon to be on call
everytime to set specs to zero and not worth it to have specific tournament
server ports for this either. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| B1aze - 212.5.80.*** |
080306 @ 04:40:02 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
20s delay for spec also usefully for autotrack, cos mod/server already know when
was something interesting instead of prognosis when something interesting will
be. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| molgrum - 85.24.184.*** |
080306 @ 06:14:30 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
A possible slower way to go is to do a command that will set spectators to 0,
which you only toggle during tournament games. Might be abused though so require
an admin vote. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| willgurht - 213.114.133.*** |
080306 @ 06:50:10 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
spectatorlock command that resets on map restart... and votable pause, so that
the sub can join the game if one player drops |
|
| |
|
|
|
| lib - 213.100.62.*** |
080306 @ 12:53:19 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
i think we're mossing the big picture here
a clan decided to break the
rules in order to have goq-fucking-sane play for them. think about it. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| soma - omg.hai.2.u |
080306 @ 15:43:49 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
it wasn't goqsane by the way. :P |
|
| |
|
|
|
| fisto - 81.226.201.*** |
080306 @ 16:39:09 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Omg this wasnt goq-fucking-sane? then we clearly have to do something cuz this
will happen again! with the real thing.. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| fog - 213.134.126.*** |
080306 @ 19:27:58 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
About taking "vent-demo"... Example of why it doesn't work:
1. The 4
people playing are communication throught vent.
2. Everyone is also
connected to TS, but muted their microphones. But there is a 5th player in TS
who just sends through TS, and that won't be recorded on Vent-demo.
So
that won't work :/ |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Åke Vader - 80.244.193.*** |
080306 @ 20:44:08 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
...and there's always the possibility of clans not admitting to have used mm3 at
all. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| soma - omg.hai.2.u |
080306 @ 22:00:46 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
fog: Kudos for giving clans additional hints on how to best cheat! ;P
No,
you're right though, that is a possibility of course. As far as I know, ventrilo
doesn't exist for Linux, so perhaps we should force clans to use Linux and
record the Teamspeak communication. =) |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Hedgepig - 84.203.144.*** |
080306 @ 22:25:21 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I support forcing everyone to play on Linux, but it oes have Skype too so we are
still in the same place. Seriously though, how many clans in the league have a
whole team that are willing to cheat by ghosting, and out of those how many of
them have the enthusiasm to actually go through a lot of hassle in order to
cheat? And out of those clans, how many of them will actually execute it well
enough to make a difference to the outcome of a league game? I think the
ghosting issue is blown out of proportion a bit. Aliasing is a very clear-cut
rule that can be proven and dealt with, but ghosting is so messy that until we
can block specs or do a pause, it might be best just to say "ghosting is
illegal, do not do it" and leave it at that. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| cyr - 62.227.95.*** |
080306 @ 23:33:49 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
as we have once pracced with 3b some time ago, i've had the feeling (still no
proof though) they were ghosting as well. this was just my humble opinion, but
if you have a look into the demo, there's absolutely no doubt for me they were
ghosting (which is still my opinion).
stop it guys! :<
btw, qtv
delay is the best solution to prevent ghosting. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Hooraytio - 89.160.23.*** |
080307 @ 02:04:46 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
hedgepig has a very valid point and i agree, just dont ghost ok? |
|
| |
|
|
|
| - 85.228.80.*** |
080307 @ 02:31:48 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Comment edited by molgrum @ 03-06-08, 18:02:02 |
|
| |
|
|
|
| johnie - 83.70.171.*** |
080307 @ 04:43:27 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
ghosting is a load of me arse anyway, its hard enough trying to listen to your
teammates, watch team messages, time quads pents ra etc and then try and kill
some1 without some other eejit shouting over people when he thinks something is
important..... |
|
| |
|
|
|
| hoder - 80.216.134.*** |
080307 @ 05:36:29 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnie
yea, raging war is sooo much easier without a captain giving u info
about the battlefield.. better to lissten to mates.
ghosting can help
ALOT if practised(proven), and i actually thought earlier how the game would
develop if ghosting was allowed. (not the direction i want though, but would be
cool to see what 2 ghosting div1 clans could produce after some
practice)
!just do that qtv delay thingy since i havent heard anything
against it yet. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| hoder - 80.216.134.*** |
080307 @ 05:38:53 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
change "ghosting was allowed" to "1 ghosting captain was allowed" |
|
| |
|
|
|
| - 85.228.80.*** |
080307 @ 07:54:47 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Comment edited by phrenic @ 03-06-08, 23:02:46 |
|
| |
|
|
|
| sassa - 85.228.80.*** |
080307 @ 08:18:55 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
* Keep such comments to your blog
Comment edited by phrenic
@ 03-06-08, 23:32:52 |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Mingle - 88.113.60.*** |
080307 @ 11:10:26 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think that the only solution for this is that NQR team should hire few new
admins, who could solve this problem. I can't really member how the song
goes...
"If there is 5th player specting, and he is acting weird, who
you gonna call? GHOST BUSTERS! tididiidi tididididiidi tididiidi tidididiidi
GHOST BUSTERS! We ain't afraid of no ghosts..." anymore...
Maybe I'm
tired or something, maybe I should go to bed. Good night. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| molgrum - 85.24.184.*** |
080307 @ 12:34:53 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Good one :) |
|
| |
|
|
|
| xpr - 85.21.150.*** |
080307 @ 18:53:43 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
yesterday drama on #ibh for all who missed it :) Zepp asked me for logs so i
uploaded them here: http://pivolan.nm.ru/ibh_06_03_08.txt
|
|
| |
|
|
|
| Mingle - 88.113.60.*** |
080307 @ 19:26:22 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I couldn't even read the whole conversation in thta xpr log, but it seems that
this conversation about this all is turning to uglier and uglier... Can you guys
make a peace or something? It's friday bitches! Let's get fucked
up!
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/8405/friday0lm9zp.jpg |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Paranoid - 92.36.38.*** |
080307 @ 22:18:04 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
2 cyr
Thats a way out to start whinig when your skill is two times lower
=)... |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Paranoid - 92.36.38.*** |
080307 @ 22:28:16 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think there s still a Shadow of USSR over Sassa =) seems he is afraid of
Russians =)
Maan come down and learn to loose =) or join Alkaeda and do
smth for your motherland! =0)
I think your opinion wont be taken into
consideration even by QW-rookies SOON!!! |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Zepp - 212.33.22.*** |
080308 @ 00:53:13 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
omg Paranoid...
something it's better to chew, than speak some
bullshit.
Take it as my free advice |
|
| |
|
|
|
| hoff - 213.112.214.*** |
080308 @ 01:02:35 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
This doesnt really come as a chock. When we played them there were some weird
things aswell. And when bulat hits with 100%sg from time to time is pretty
awesome to :) |
|
| |
|
|
|
| sassa - 85.225.113.*** |
080308 @ 02:13:39 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paranoid: I actually wanna give 3b their 7points back |
|
| |
|
|
|
| soma - omg.hai.2.u |
080308 @ 02:42:57 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
well you can do that when they sign up for EQL7. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| molgrum - 85.24.184.*** |
080308 @ 03:08:38 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
sassa you have to learn to stop acting as the admin, it's getting on people's
nerves you know?
BBB got a 7 points reduction because WE decided it with a
long discussion, and still you expect us to change our minds because of some
crap blog? It's a nice effort but I still have to feel sorry for your
incapability of not being able to act as a mature human, nor being able to
comprehend what people write.
Any further comments from you that has to do
with this ridiculous drama will be deleted, you can keep to your little blog all
you want though. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Sassa - 87.99.128.*** |
080308 @ 04:21:17 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
molgrum, Im just stating my pov on this matter, I know u wont change your
decision.
But I still wanna keep up a discussion concerning this matter, or
shouldnt I? |
|
| |
|
|
|
| hoder - 80.216.134.*** |
080308 @ 04:30:08 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
censorship of someone by principle sounds sucky D: furthermore, deleting
someones posts here for what it said somewhere else sounds pretty unfair also.
think that if the comments trashing sassa comments stays, so should his
statements (not defending him as i havent read it, but sure as hell doesnt feel
right to read the replys to deleted posts) !just write deleted due to
irrelevance or something.. ---> going to read the blog now :> hope to find
an answer more then sassa imposing as admin.. and will be fun to see if he has
deleted your messeges there, and telling you to reply here.. :> love the qw
dramas (sry for total irrelavence to the topic) |
|
| |
|
|
|
| cyr - 62.227.80.*** |
080308 @ 06:32:24 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paranoid
2 cyr
Thats a way out to start whinig when your skill is
two times lower =)...
--
i don't see where i whined about
losing. i've just said 3b were possibly ghosting, even before the demo was
released. what is the odds???
additionally, i don't think talking about
skill-level is of any relevance here, cupcake. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| niomic - 62.78.219.*** |
080308 @ 06:44:16 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cencorship is bad mmkay :/
I urge everyone that is actually interested
in further talks about this issue to venture beyond this site and to sassa's
qw.nu
blog:
http://www.quakeworld.nu//?page=blogs&id=90&aid=3
And
just as a precursor, please try to ignore whatever feelings you have about sassa
and all his past posts and simply look at the post and comments with an open
mind and you will see the issue very clearly. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| molgrum - 85.24.184.*** |
080308 @ 07:38:45 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't intend to impose any censorship regarding what you call a "discussion",
but rather to seperate it from this news post so everyone who is interested in
it can read and comment on sassa's own blog. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| plast - 83.13.196.*** |
080308 @ 08:24:48 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
there must be some whine/drama curse on me... even when i don't start it, it
comes where i am/play |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
vs. Lizards 
vs. the Viper Squad 
vs. Quakeklan 
vs. Chosen 
