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Link wrote an article about the map issue

Vertigo wrote a nice article, talked some about maps, and that started some discussions about the neverending map-issue. So, I thought I should write this article, so that we can get the participating clans in NQR4 to comment on how they feel about it. And if you don?t comment on it, then I guess you don?t care about it enough, in other words; same shit for you on what maps that will be in NQR5.

The big three maps; e1m2-dm2-dm3, are by definition standard 4on4 maps in QW 4on4, no matter if you think the maps suck or not, they have been standard since 1997 and therefore everyone accept that. The question is what maps we want in addition to that. NQR will not ever be big three only, so don?t even bother to whine about that please, because it is not an issue and is not valuable feedback, it is just waste of time. I hope someone could start a Villains/SD tournament thing with the big three only that would be as consistent as NQR is, that would be an asset to the QW scene, a kind of ?classic? qw tournament, lets hope someone does that in the future, I know many ppl would like that.

What I want to ppl to discuss in the comments here, are what kind of maps do we want in NQR, and how many. Do we want to keep the current eXmX maps that are in the map pool, or do want to remove some of them?or all of them? (not talking about e1m2, coz that map is described as one of the big three). And what about the CMT maps? Do we want them in NQR? If yes, do we want all of them or just some of them?

Even if I personally very much enjoy and like to play lots of eXmX maps, I have to say that the CMT maps really are better maps for 4on4 than eXmX. I even think they are superior to e1m2 and dm2. But because e1m2 and dm2 have been played for 6 years, a lot of ppl will of course just laugh of that, for obvious mapknowledge reasons.

I just want to reflect on a couple of things on the CMT maps?think about this for a moment;

Do you really think that ID Software knew how to make a map for 4on4 back in 1996, with the latest year?s gameplay and development?

Then you ask yourself this as well;

Well, many ppl started to make new maps and have done so since 1997, so why the hell didn?t ppl start to play more custom maps like they did in Q2, Q3A or any other FPS for that matter?

Well, that?s a couple of good questions. The first one I would like to say a defiantly NO to, anyone who actually believes that ID Software knew how to make good 4on4 team deathmatch map back in the spring of 1996 have to be pretty naive, sorry for saying so. I would say that dm3 was a pretty lucky shot in the dark :) Still though they made a lot of quality single player maps, who had many nice designed areas to execute thrilling gameplay on, and that?s why I think some of them are very much enjoyed by players, because it also translates to be thrilling in a 4on4 combat situation, not only gibbing monsters.

The second question is a little more difficult to answer, but I can give you an answer based on my own experience. I think that one major reason for custom maps not making it to the mainstream of qw?ers is simply because that mappers in general just don?t know how to make a good 4on4 tdm map. There is one well known and respected mapper I once talked too, that gave me the following rant;

well, you don?t know how to make a map do you? So let the ppl who know how to make maps make maps, and you just play and stfu

gg :)

I think a lot of mappers also work kind of like ?artists? and give their own personal touch on it, and of course gets proud of their work. I am not sure if this is the correct way to make a good 4on4 map. Another reason is of course how you make coverage for a map, in other words; how do you sell it to the players? The CMT project started out with me looking at like 200 custom maps, downloaded from various sites. And of all of those maps, I really could only see one single map with potential, namely Andromeda Nine, that we converted into cmt4. One map out of 200, ok, now we might understand better why no customs made it.

So, after 6 years of gameplay and experience, we worked with 4 mappers, who each produced one map each. But the good thing about the CMT project was that during the making of these maps, people who actually is hardcore 4on4 players and play 4on4 a lot, had something to say about it. I think this is an important factor for making a good 4on4 map. I also think that the CMT league proved that these maps in fact are what they were supposed to be; good 4on4 maps.

The CMT tournament even got top elite clans to more or less accept these maps as good 4on4 maps. That has to be at least something in our very conservative qw 4on4 world. And when you look at maps as e1m2 and dm2, compared to the CMT maps, then at least I understand what ppl whine about when it comes to new maps, it is in fact not that the new maps are bad, it is the little knowledge about them that is bad. A good example here is of course Paradoks who took his first look at cmt1 and said; ?this map sucks?. Now Paradoks says; ?this map was made for me? (forgive me Para) :D

So it?s all about attitude.

The CMT league gave the following feedback;

Cmt2?Cmt3?Cmt4 stays as they are.
Cmt1?Cmt5 need some adjustments (cmt1 at quad, cmt5 is a little big).

This is the feedback we wanted, and that we got, thanks to everyone who played CMT maps seriously!

Ok, enough promotion on the CMT maps :)

The eXmX maps are also a bit popular, in fact here are all the teams in NQR4, and the maps they have chosen to play, as home map or choice of map for the day, when half the season have past for many clans:

The Axemen - e1m5
Civil Disobedience - e2m2
JAMS - e2m7
EarthQuake - e2m7
The Fighting Foes - e2m7
PsychoHaloons Crew - e3m2 + e3m3
Beastie Boys - e3m2 + e2m7
Quake-o-holics - e3m3
Swedish Super Cops - e3m3
OLW - e3m3
Osams - e3m3
Hell Patrol - e3m6
FUDOH - e3m7
FNU - e3m7

So, only 2 maps remaining in the map pool has yet to be played; e1m6 and e3m1. Before the season started I did not think those two maps would be played very much either. I thought that maybe Gamblers would play e1m6 as usual, but they died as a clan. E3m1 I did not think would be played at all, due to the fact that the map did not have any history at all amongst the NQR4 clans that signed up.

What we have to ask our self is this:

How many maps do we want? Do we want to put a certain number on it and say 10 only? 14 only? 8 only? 5 only? Or do we want to be a little more liberal and let clans have the ?freedom? we have now?

Personally I don?t think we should have eXmX maps in NQR that no clan chooses as home map, or maps they know they will not choose. In NQR3 that would be e1m5 and e3m7, in NQR4 that would be e1m6 and e3m1.

I agree with the term that it is easier to learn maps with a smaller map pool, but who shall choose out the maps? Is it ok that some clans get their beloved eXmX home map, but not others? I personally don?t think so, because it really has nothing to do with the quality of the map (talking about NQR map pool now, not no-good-maps as e3m4 and e4m6). It is really just as if you like redheads, blondes or a brunettes, large tits or small tits :)

So it comes down to taste, not if the map ?sucks? or not.

I like to have many maps in the map pool, as long as the maps are good for 4on4, but I understand that having fewer maps in the map pool also is a good thing. So you really just have to make a choice, because when it comes to the map issue, there are not only advantages or disadvantages. No matter what map pool you got, there will be some advantages with it, and some disadvantages with it.

So let?s look at that and see what options we have. Here are some suggestions to what we can do in NQR5, this is what is coming into my head, but plz make some other suggestions in the comments if you got some:

1. We keep the current map pool = 12 maps

2. We keep the current map pool and add the CMT maps = 17 maps

3. We ditch the eXmX maps and add the CMT maps = 8 maps
This means we don?t care about some clans wishes and requests for a home map they would love to play

4. We select a certain number of maps we want in the map pool, let?s say just for this example: 10 maps. This means we got 7 maps to add in addition to the big 3. What maps do we add? Do we add all the CMT maps, leaving 2 eXmX maps to be selected? Or do we add just 3 CMT maps, leaving the space for 4 eXmX maps? And how do we select the maps? Do we let the community vote on it?

5. We let all the clans signing up for NQR5 get to sign up ONE eXmX map they would like to play, so that when all clans are counted for, you get a certain amount of eXmX maps in the map pool. If we look at NQR4 as an example, then you would most likely have; e1m5, e2m2, e2m7, e3m2, e3m3, e3m7. that?s 6 maps + big 3 = 9 maps. And we still have not taken the CMT maps into consideration.

Would I personally like to sacrifice my home map e1m5? Meaning we ditch all eXmX maps and bring in the CMT maps, having a 8 map pool? Maybe. The advantage is fewer maps, it might be better for the qw 4on4 scene. But then I loose the joy and pleasure of playing e1m5, that I love so much. But maybe that?s the sacrifice I must accept? Then again you can ask yourself; but is not qw about fun? I think its damn fun to play a good variety of maps, I just love it, makes it more fun for me to play qw than just the same maps all the time. Some ppl are bored with just the same maps, some are not.

I understand the ppl that want to have the ?freedom? to choose what they want for ?homemap?, I also understand the ppl who says it is ?unprofessional? to have too many maps.

Well, honestly I REALLY DON?T KNOW what the best is, because you got valid arguments on both sides. Ye, the small map pool are good for all clans, because it provides more ?fair? conditions when it comes to mapknowledge. But hey, random map is big 3 only, so what?s the problem if you some times have to play on a map you hate? You still got your random map, you can?t sacrifice that little your selves in order please other players? Winning is everything?

Well, I could live with many of these suggestions, so plz ppl, don?t be silent on this issue, say something, and make some good argumentation along the way, and remember we are a whole community :-)


sexC - 030328 @ 17:44:05
neat writing link, but you might want to think twice about why those odd maps have been played so far? It it because the clans truly enjoyed them from day one, or is it because they felt they would have an advantage knowing an odd map better than the other clans? About the CMT issue, I think that one or two of the maps should be taken into consideration. This might just be my own humble opinion, but I can only see cmt1 and cmt3 as maps in NQR5. Cmt1 since it's obviously accepted already as well as being a great map, and cmt3 mainly due to its abnormally good layout. If you would actually take the time to study the map you would find that it's just as well balanced as dm3, if not even better. When I first saw cmt5 I thought it would be the shit, but after having watched a few demos I find it rather dull. Maybe a smaller version of it (as you mentioned) would be the go? When it comes down to the exmy maps, I say that there should be a maximum of 5 of them, excluding e1m2. I personally would like to see the good old e3m7, e2m2 e3m2. As far as the rest goes, I'd go along with anything as long as a wide range of clans play them. Whatever you do though, make sure not to include dm6 :).
sexC - 030328 @ 17:45:21
Gee, that's almost essay length! Wish I had that flow when it comes down to writing English essays :).
pattah - 030328 @ 17:46:36
Is the an abstract available?
aken - 030328 @ 17:49:37
Well, i'm not against episode maps, only if that map has no other to do than camp a position. You have talked about fun, and that's right. Winning is not everything, fun is really important too. But there are several maps where you don't have to do anytihng else than to stand in a place and shoot everything what moves, and that's far away from fun. It's 100% for winning. If a map has a challenge, if it requires a nice TP to win, then it's ok i think.
Link - 030328 @ 17:50:48
sexC: I really dont think clans play _only_ to win, at least not the majority. I think clans choose maps because they think it is fun to play, or else why play it? just to get point? Hmm, I dont think so actually, at least not the majority. Axemen even helped CMF out on tactics before the e1m5 game, it is because we LOVE to play the map, no matter if we win or loose.
busti - 030328 @ 17:52:44
Since i only recently discovered and turned to qw, all maps are equally new to me. And i must say that the cmt-maps (or some of them, cmt4 is a load of crap) are much better for 4v4 teamplay than the rather sucky exmex-pool, wich was designed for singelplayer.... Keeping the "Big 3" is probably a must, otherwise oldschoolers will whine themself blue and even might refuse to play. Deleting all of the exmxcrapmaps will most likely have the same effect. Adding 3 cmt maps and keeping 4 exmx looks like a neat way of handling it. The maps could be choosen from how much they are played in the latest seasons of nqr and nqr/cmt. Well.. thats my p.o.v. - but hey, im a rookie ;)
sexC - 030328 @ 17:53:54
link: I know that you would be an exception :). Of course you play it because you enjoy it, I was just saying that no matter what maps would be available, certain clans would turn to them in order to gain an advantage (and yer have some fun). I might be totally wrong, so we'll see if nqr5 proves me wrong :).
Link - 030328 @ 17:59:00
ye, but in order to gain that advantage, they really how to know the map, i.e. prac it :)
Link - 030328 @ 18:01:20
busti: ye, but when you got so many different clans and teams changing all the time, you also get a little change in maps. e1m5 and e3m7 is played now, they were not played last season. Last season e1m6 and e3m1 was played, but are not played now. So if you just blindly look at last season and choose maps from that, is that correct?
vickers - 030328 @ 18:02:27
my vote is for the triumvirate + cmt maps (maybe with cmt5 excluded, coz as you`ve said it is a bit too large)
reppie - 030328 @ 18:19:41
can't you make the clans that will sign up for the next NQR submit their homemap? then think about what your max. amount of maps in the mappool will be, and select the ones that has been chosen the most? that way every map gets a fair chance to make it :)
reppie - 030328 @ 18:21:26
and about the CMT maps .. i think it's near impossible to give a really GOOD judgement about them yet .. i mean, we've been playing them for like .. 1-2 months now? i dont think you can really get to know them as well as we all know the "big three", so it's pretty hard to give a good judgement about it yet
Link - 030328 @ 18:22:52
And what should the max amount be? Is there for example a BIG difference between 10 and 12 maps? :>
Empezar - 030328 @ 19:10:16
Keep The Big Three, add the CMT maps, and keep 2 eXmX maps. I would personally give up e3m7 for this.
Icce - 030328 @ 19:14:06
Nice thoughts in this neverending mapstory Link =) Here's what I think about it: Big 3 and 5 exmx + 2 CMT = 10. Think that's a good number to start with. Don't forget that the majority of all clans didn't participate in CMT-legue, and I guess a majority of them have very little experience of CMT maps. To put all 5 CMT in is just too much if you ask me.
t00nsy - 030328 @ 19:28:25
Given that everybody knows dm2/dm3/e1m2, i think that having 8 to 10 maps in the pool would be ok. That would make only 5 to 7 maps to learn. Maybe asking each clan what they'd like to have for the remaining 5 or 7 maps would be a solution... It seems that we (the newbies & newcomers in div6) aren't very fond of other maps that the big 3 as i've never played anything else in nqr so far...
FlePser - 030328 @ 19:33:13
big three - 2/3 cmt maps and 2/3 exmx maps = max 9 maps that rox
Samgorod - 030328 @ 20:14:53
NQR QW turning to a CMT mod? I think the maps currenly in NQR are realy the best maps available... Don't change what ain't broken! Make other tournament for custom maps like CMT... But if you allow CMT maps, why not allow all EXMX maps too and yeah why not Aerowalk, dm4,dm6, dm1 and most of all Ukooldm maps while ur at it.... Thats one way to go to spoil it all... :P
spd - 030328 @ 20:32:35
Number of maps really isnt a problem as I see it. Most clans wont spend time top prac all maps, they just prac the maps the other teams in the same division plays and thats some thing like 1 to at most 4 eXmX maps.
flinty - 030328 @ 20:42:12
i agree with icce - big 3 and 5 exmx and 2 cmt = 10.
bld - 030328 @ 20:43:03
i think all id maps should be allowed...+ the cmt maps.. (i miss e3m4)
Link - 030328 @ 21:22:31
bld, what actually happens when 2 ppl got penta and they telefrag each other? you should know if you like to play e3m4 :)
Link - 030328 @ 21:26:22
That was a lot of whine Samgorod, hehe :> I Would be happy if you could answer this for me: what makes the eXmX maps better than the CMT maps? And Icce, plz learn some CMT maps, lol :)
Samgorod - 030328 @ 22:01:59
Lamer Link and his whine comments... If u won't agree with Link u are whining... :) Grow up link or stfu... :P I just wanted to make the point... Why change what ain't broken... Anyway feel free to add whatever u like... like u already have... :) Certaintly hope there will be orginal qw tournaments in future too...
Link - 030328 @ 22:14:33
:-))) Well, all I was asking from you was that you explained to me why you thought eXmX was better than CMT. You said the maps NQR currently how now are the best. I guess you got a good reason for saying so? I am just asking questions, not being lame =))))
R2D2 - 030328 @ 22:17:13
Honestly, I think that it's REALLY, REALLY good as it is right now. Keep the eXmX maps, add ALL dmX maps (4on4 on cistern would be awesome) and maybe some more CMT maps. I mean, why fewer maps? If there's some maps that won't be played, so what? If there's only a few maps played QW will become boring. I can't really see what anyone would loose on having as many maps as possible, aside from the obvious "moron-maps" such as e1m3. Btw, great writing Link.
R2D2 - 030328 @ 22:21:42
Forgot to mention in the earlier post.. I think that each clan could choose their map of favor, and if you (admins) feel like adding some maps, then you should do so. I think that it will bring more life to QW to play some old maps that are seldom played. As I wrote in my earlier post, in the long run, QW will become boring to play the SAME maps over and over and over again. And I personally think that a good clan should be able to play as many maps as possible, instead of 2 of the "big 3".
t00nsy - 030328 @ 22:27:53
Samgorod u said: "Why change what ain't broken"...maybe because there is some far better stuff ?
HangTime - 030328 @ 22:33:40
" But hey, random map is big 3 only, so what?s the problem if you some times have to play on a map you hate? You still got your random map" The point i made elsewhere is that cos of the point system, losing on some obscure eXmY or CMT map is a big fucking deal, every single map counts in nqr system and if you win 2-1 you are fucked, as we saw in nqr-cmt where SR won all their games and still didn't finish in first position. A valid point is made "I agree with the term that it is easier to learn maps with a smaller map pool, but who shall choose out the maps? Is it ok that some clans get their beloved eXmX home map, but not others?" this is big deal, its kinda unfair on teams if you allow some 'strange' maps but not others. I guess imo the best way is to ask clans to vote for e.g. 5 maps from eXmY and CMTz when they signup, compile all votes and pick the most popular 4+ additional maps to the big 3. By 4+ i mean pick 4, and then any additional ones which are close to the number of votes the 4th choice map received - you might end up with 7 extra maps but wtf!
Strife - 030328 @ 23:09:37
I just have to say, remember that just because some clans use some of the eXmX maps in NQR, doesn't mean that they think they are good 4on4 maps. I can honest say that my clan (EQ) choose e2m7 to be our homemap mostly because so few knew the map at the time. I also beleive some clans followed us when they saw us owning on it (we still have 100% on it, and e1m2.. but nevermind that :)). Now that we know the map, we like it though, it was better suited for 4on4 than I had first thought it would be.
Link - 030328 @ 23:43:20
Strife said: "it was better suited for 4on4 than I had first thought it would be". Gee, I have never heard that before :) Question to HangTime; so if NQR was big 3 only, you would not have any problems with the point system?
HangTime - 030329 @ 01:08:45
Link: No, i don't like the point system fullstop (again, as I said in another thread). Losing ANY map is a really big deal in NQR, which makes the overall victory almost meaningless, its just on maps. The point I am making, is that this flawed (imo) point system is exasperated by the map system; since map wins are so valuable (and costly to lose), its terrifying to consider facing a clan who might be playing a strange map. If the overall victory across all maps was relatively more important, then it wouldn't be so scary; e.g. the NQR title wouldn't be won or lost on whether you could beat axemen on e1m5 or something like that.
HangTime - 030329 @ 01:12:56
In summation, what I'm saying about point system is this: The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 should be greater than that between 2-0 and 2-1, e.g. a 4-3-1-0 system instead of 3-2-1-0. That way each map is still worth something, a 2-0 is better than 2-1, but the overall match victory carries a little more weight than before.
Budzior - 030329 @ 01:21:48
1.) big 3 + 2.) 2 cmt + 3.) 5 eXmX + 4.) 2 most often chosen homemaps omit 1,2,3 = 12 greetz nqr crew C:=
caspar - 030329 @ 06:03:16
personally i think the mappool now is quite ok, sure there are a few crap maps (dm2, e1m5 and e3m3 for example) but since there are some that wants to play them why not leave them in? just dont remove that e1m6, its a funky map, sure we wont ever choose it but we still enjoy playing it if the other team do.
sexC - 030329 @ 06:54:55
link: have a read of what strife wrote, they did pick the map because they thought they would have an advantage and not necessarily because they enjoyed it :). What I've seen so far regarding the whole map issue, it will either be all the players signing up for NQR5 getting together in a big poll, or simply admins just deciding based on opinions from the players. I think that the majority still would stick to playing the big three, so with a point system the way HT described it the clans with the odd maps out can still have their fun without having a major impact on the final results.
sexC - 030329 @ 06:57:05
you might just want to put together a sexy mapguide with some information and tactics for each of the maps that are taken into consideration (that is if you are to have a vote amongst the players). Even though I wouldn't vote myself due to not playing, I sure as hell would enjoy the reading :).
sexC - 030329 @ 07:10:17
Based on how the league has gone so far, dm2 has been played more than any other map, even more than dm3 itself (by three times). E1m2 on the other hand has only been played 2/3 as much as dm2 and dm3. All the other "odd" maps add up to half of that of dm2 or dm3. Therefore we can clearly see that there is an interest in having these odd maps in the league. My opinion however is that along with one or two cmt maps this odd map figure could even outnumber e1m2. We can also see that so far we've got a fair bit of maps available, but the total number of games played that these maps make up is dominated by just 2-3 maps. Therefore I strongly suggest that quality should go before quantity, meaning that I'd rather see fewer maps if they are being played alot than seeing heaps of maps being played by only a clan or two. Remember that a map is better the more times it has been played, and not necessarily since it's the most well designed map around. Take the big three for an example, I'd say that dm2 has the worst design out of them three but it's still the one that is most frequently played. See if you've got some thought on this issue whenever you slackasses wake up.
billy - 030329 @ 08:46:17
big three + exmy's, we've got other tournaments for cmt :) and i agree with HT about the flawed point system :( 4-3-1-0 would be better, the overall victory has to count more, oh and dont make players vote on the map issue, the crew should decide about it basing on the feedback of players, that way we wont have so much WHINE :O
yveZ - 030329 @ 09:56:28
im for the following: the big three and cmt 1,2,3,4 (not 5, tooo big) so thatll be 7 maps thats twice the big 3, but still no SOOO many maps that it becomes impossible to be a bit good at every one of them :) So max 7 maps, consiting the big 3 and 4 cmt maps :)
Tuna - 030329 @ 10:10:36
well i never touched any custom map, but if people say they are good.. put them in. just keep a team ruling which maps to put it and which to leave out and call them CMTx.. thats really cool. idont like to have too many different names for each custom map_pak like uk_something (no offense). and then again.. we all know we play this shit because of fun, not counting those few i-wanna-win-at-all-cost pathetics. so why not just allowing all quake maps + cmt? of course there are alot of maps which plainly suck for teamplay.. but they proppably will never be played. bu maybe a clan wants to try something new.. and finds a map that will be fun to play. if they play some stupid map they'll get bitched by the community in the comments.. and good is ;) if your afraid just put on some reagulations on playoffs and relegation games.. anyway.. this is my stupid wish and no one cares :)
spd - 030329 @ 10:14:35
I actually like the point system used in nqr. I see it more like you get one extra point on penalty shots when you get 2 points for a 2-1 victory. Lets face the fact that many times its ^NQR^ that gives awy this extra point. And I dont see why the outcome of a random map should be worth 2 points.
Strife - 030329 @ 10:19:31
I agree with yveZ
Goljat - 030329 @ 12:46:14
just add all cmt maps + remove those e1m6,e3m1 and all cmt maps are better than eXmY. You can change point system too. I like more 0-1-2point system than 0-1-2-3. 1point/per map is good system so scores are like 2-0,2-1,1-2,0-2. No matter if you lose e1m5 :)
Sassa - 030329 @ 13:06:06
Heyya, took a long time to read all those comments and that Huge (and nice) article link! First of, Im glad that you took this up with the players in NQR and didnt do as you did just in the start of the league (just picking maps in/out as you pleased ;)) (joke!) ) anyways I started playing QW 4on4 when NQR3 just started and I didnt know jack-shit about teamplay, so we played the "big three" all the time (praccs/nqr) to get to know them well, and in the end NQR3 was done, yeah true that we played some eXmY maps also but we didnt really wanted to have praccs on those maps because we knew to little about the "big three" to start concentraiting on other maps.. when QHLAN came only "big three" was played there (at least for my clan).. so when clanbase started it was with only 1 eXmY map and one cmt (+dm6) besides the "Big three"... right when that started the CMT league started also, my clan wanted so badly to participait in everything so we joined CMT-tourney also, but we always wanna be well prepaired for everything we join, because we hate been owned (like we did with our first games like this: ) so thats why we always pracc alot to know the maps etc, so we pracced alot on the cmt maps to know them and right when we were starting to know them alot the Next NQR started and then with clans taking advantage of the eXmY maps and choosing them as their homemap (like eQ) so we were put in a higher division than we thought we could handle so there for we had to pracc those maps before the NQR started because we didnt wanna wanna have the same kind of scores as our first NQR3 games ( ) so we had to pracc new maps again, and this was our third time and by know my teamm8s were angry and feed up with it because we laid alot of effort of learning the CMT maps and now we needed to learn 9 (?) new eXmY maps? so we pracced the eXmY maps a bit for 3 weeks or something to get to know them better and know we have only played 2 matches and we are already into our third week so we are a bit after the schedual... anyways, now you think, so what the fuck is he talking about, here is the answere: NQR4 is a n00b league and not lots of qw players that have played the league for a long time.. ffs maniacs are in div3 and we just started to learn teamplay, and its so hard for n00bs to learn ALOT of new maps and specially if you put the CMT maps in the next season they will get all fucked up, they gotta learn the "big three" and some of the eXmY maps and in the same time the cmt maps? so what Im saying is that DONT take in more maps, if you wanna do a change, take away some maps, but DONT add maps that arent in the maplist! this will just make it more fucked up for the new clans/players! (but if im selfish and only think about myself and my clan I wanna have the big three + cmt1-3, but Im not selfish I think about the community and know that we got lots of n00bs, or oldiz getting back dont make them confused, just go with the wind and keep the cmt league one more season and for NQR6 take in the cmt maps or what ever BUT not now) BTW, I havent sleeped anything and Im a bit rusty so dont comment on my spelling mistakes or stufflike that.. hope you guys understand what Im trying to say here.. and plz change the score-system to what ht is trying to say, that sounds better imo! Over and out Sassa-the-cam
Sassa - 030329 @ 13:12:14
what I was trying to say is that I have been (am?) a n00b and had to learn alot of maps at the same time so I know the drill its hard, just keep it as it is or take away some maps!!
clox - 030329 @ 13:21:22
I saw some lines in sassas post which said "DONT take in more maps". I totally agree. Instead of trying to learn a new map in order to beat better teams on it by have more mapknowledge, do more training instead.
clox - 030329 @ 13:23:13
The magical 3, is all you need, right? :>
sexC - 030329 @ 14:02:52
sassa: that second post said more than your first one :).
monster - 030329 @ 18:49:22
well, for div 6 i think that the players there, will only choose out of the big three, if they advance to higher div then they may have to learn some of the odd maps and if that includes cmt maps then is would be just fine I think. the "odd" maps is for the more experienced players (in div 4 and up) that allready know the big three and some ExMx maps, adding 3 cmts and keep like 5 ExMx would be nice, but for the newbies the cmt and odd ExMx maps would just not be a problem,
RocketZ - 030329 @ 21:18:33
E1M2, DM2, DM3 is the three and only's
caspar - 030330 @ 01:13:23
argh sassa. way too long post with too much strange grammatics ;) i agree tho, keep the maps that are now, dont expand the mappool too much
dak - 030330 @ 01:21:33
3 old + 3 cmt + 3 eXmY = 9 maps. That's the best way to go imo, makes it easy to pick the maps as well. And as someone said, make a poll avaliable through the admin tool (thus limiting to a vote per clan) and pick the 3 most registered cmt and eXmY maps.
xhrl - 030330 @ 01:51:36
i think it is best to have the community vote on the maps. simply decide how many maps nqr is to have in the pool...I'd suggest 5, 6 or 7 at the most. then simply have a vote on which 7 maps the community wants. it seems simple to me. The other option is to have the admins pick all the maps, leaving the community with no say at all. Both options have an upside and a downside. I think giving thwe community a vote over some or all of the maps is a shrewd move, as it would absolve the admins of being responsible for the maps selected; the admins would simply be rule enforcers---and that, imo, is what an admin should be. respectfully, xhrl
HangTime - 030330 @ 03:13:15
That goes against the Link view. He believes leagues should be run by dictators who make rules regardless of what players want cos "democracy SUCKS!" (his words not mine)
Tezz - 030330 @ 03:34:11
DM1-6, sorted.
caspar - 030330 @ 03:41:14
that'd we quite ok aswell, especially dm1... would be great to be able play a game without enemy rls :]
sexC - 030330 @ 03:42:51
RocketZ - 030329 @ 21:18:33 E1M2, DM2, DM3 is the three and only's and you give sassa shit for HIS English? :P
nocturnal - 030330 @ 05:59:06
Keep dm3, dm2, e1m2 + five eXmX maps and add two CMT maps (10 maps total). Let the clans vote on the eXmX and CMT maps.
billy - 030330 @ 09:28:48
let the people vote for a new nqr crew, and then let the crew decide which maps to play :) that would be democracy as understood in a political way :)
RocketZ - 030330 @ 13:21:16
Well.. i think sassa's english is good.. but a bit slow when commentating :-) I know i suck at english.. but.. to bad NQR isnt sweede's only ;) (Ok, that was a joke)


Kryten - 030330 @ 15:00:27
CMT maps are much better than 95% of the exmx maps, I don't see any reason not to start using them. So ok, some clans are gonna have to learn some new maps - shock horror! 6 years on the same maps is getting a bit zzzzz, especially now we have quality alternatives.
spd - 030330 @ 15:04:49
the only thing democracy does is to ensure that the voters get the result they deserve (and thats not allways the best one;)
Sassa - 030330 @ 16:43:46
why not more maps for higher divisions ? let the n00bs in div6-5 learn the basic three big maps first before they go in "outher space" ;) just a suggestion, I know that it will be the best way for those teams, from previuse experience
Link - 030330 @ 17:54:51
Ok, I am just gonna do a test and see if
works before I post a new comment :)
Link - 030330 @ 17:55:20
it did =)
dREk - 030330 @ 19:41:50
I agree with Icce and Nocturnal and everyone else stating to keep dm3, dm2, e1m2 + five eXmX maps and add two CMT maps (10 maps total). And I am also agreeing with Hangtime about point system, I think it needs an overlook aswell.
HangTime - 030330 @ 20:41:20

tr0ll - 030330 @ 21:31:09
My humble opinion is that we use the following maps: TBT (The Big Three), e1m5, e2m2, e2m7, e3m2, e3m6, e3m7 and add the five CMT-maps. This will add up to 14 maps and will give more excitement and challenge to such a big tourney as NQR. Oh, btw, there are ppl who like asian and blacks too...
sassa - 030331 @ 07:45:06
what do you mean?
Sassa - 030331 @ 07:54:13
what about this:
div1 = big three + 4-5 exmx + 4-5 cmt
div2 = big three + 3-4 exmx + 4-5 cmt
div3 = big three + 2-3 exmx + 3-4 cmt
div4 = big three + 2-3 exmx + 1-2 cmt
div5 = big three + 1-2 exmx + 0-1 cmt
div6 = big three + 0-1 exmx + 0-0 cmt

why this way? as I said before, because its hard for the new players to learn new maps so let them concentrait mostly on the big three maps and then later if they move higher they can play the cmt maps!
But how will we choose what maps for what divisons? lets just go with voting, and the popular maps will be #1 choice, so if CMT1 is #1 for the cmt maps and e2m2 and e2m3 for the exmx maps then those maps will be go first in that list I just wrote and so on..
Just a suggestion that I think will be good for the new clans witch we have alot of!
Kryten - 030331 @ 10:19:14
different maps for different divisions is nothing short of idiotic. sorry =)
Kryten - 030331 @ 10:35:29
The trouble with this open discussion is that only a small number of teams playing in NQR actually played in CMT. A large number of players don't know the CMT maps at all and if anyone is asked if they want to play a map they know nothing about, then their reaction is likely to be "no". I entered CMT very sceptical, but was pleasantly surprised.
Link - 030331 @ 10:57:01
Ok, many personal map desires here, as always :) This of course dont make it any easier for admins. The problem as I see it, is to agree on how many maps we should have in NQR. If we allow todays map pool + CMT maps we got 17 maps. Then "everyone" gets to play their desired maps. If that is the correct way to do it I dont know.

It is kind of funny to read ppl's view's on CMT maps as well, ppl are going just like the eXmX maps; "that map I know a little, thats good, lets have that one!". So it really becomes the same situation on those maps as it does with eXmX. And that does not help either.

An easy solution would of course be full anarchy and let players/clans decide with votes, regardless of what the result is. Ye I call it anarchy, you thought democracy was the same as anarchy? :) Btw nice idea Billy about let all players decide who is gonna be admins. I guess Icce, who owns and have payed for the domain and all the admins that has been working hard every NQR season, taught that was an absolute splended idea! :) We are not saying it is going to be easy to pick out a map pool for NQR5, no matter how we do it or what maps it will be, someone will disagree, that's the only thing that is 100 %.

Personally I think we should have an eXmX signup feature when clans signup for NQR5, where clans signup their ONE eXmX of choice, so we at least can see what maps wo DO NOT need for NQR5. That eXmX signup should of course be optional, so if you dont have any eXmX map you want to play then just leave it blank. That will of course not solve everything, but at least it will help a little bit. Maybe another thing that can help clans to perform better on the enemies map is to have a rule that says that the eXmX map that the clan signed up with, is the ONLY eXmX map they can choose to play. I am not sure of this is a suggestion ppl welcome, someone might not agree of course, but it sure will help clans to prepare better for fights, because you will then know what eXmX map the enemy might choose. I mean, if you want to beat the Super Cops 2-0 and get 3 points from them, you have to practice e3m3, or get slaugthered, your choice!

I guess this issue is all about comprimises...

HangTime confused me a little bit, as I asked him if he was ok with the current pointsystem if it had been only the big 3. His reply to that was: "No, i don't like the point system fullstop". I thougth then the maps had nothing to do with it, but then he says: "...its terrifying to consider facing a clan who might be playing a strange map. If the overall victory across all maps was relatively more important, then it wouldn't be so scary; e.g. the NQR title wouldn't be won or lost on whether you could beat axemen on e1m5 or something like that." I guess it would be better if the NQR title was won or lost on the big 3 then?. It sure sounded like it, at least to me anyway :>

HangTime brings up the point system, and he think it is bad because there is too litte difference between a 2-1 win and a 1-2 loss. Well, if we make a 4-3-1-0 point system, then it will be the other way around, then it wont matter so much if you win 2-0 or 2-1. Then there is really no point of having that one point for 1-2? Why not just have a 3-2-0 system then? That is the same. Then it becomes less important to win a map. HangTime says; "it is just a matter of maps". Well, that is actually correct, that is what NQR3 was, and what NQR4 is, only thing is you get a bouns point if you make it 2-0. In this game you dont have anything like a draw, it is win or loose, never a tie. It might seem strange to someone, but I think a 2-1 map should be closer to a draw than a victory. 2-0 is a clear victory, 2-1 is not, and loosing 1-2 is not bad at all, it is only 1 map difference between the clans, sometimes a couple of frags, or a just a frag. So by taking in the 4-3-1-0 point system, you make the difference between the clans in the table bigger. I dont know if that is a good thing. Like it is now, the clans who win 2-0 will get 3 points, the loosers 0. Clans who wins 2-1 will get 2 points, the loosers 1. It just sounds right, at least for me. Personally I think when a clan looses a decider map, it has been a close game all the way, and by giving a higher point difference to winner/looser in such a game, and even a higher one in a 2-0 game, will make the point difference and the status between the clans in the table look somewhat wrong.

It is very simple, when we got a certain number of maps in the map pool, then all those maps are equal, no matter what taste in maps you got. I just suspect that HangTime wants the 4-3-1-0 point system because of the map situation, and I think that is wrong (ok David so rant down on me if my taughts are dead off). 1 point for each map you win sounds like an ok system to me, you even get a bonus point if you win 2-0. But hey, I guess this is also a matter of taste, just as maps is.

So who is "correct" when it comes to personal taste about maps and points? These are hard questions to answer...

Before the season started some players whined a lot about that e1m5 and e3m7 got in the map pool, even though they KNEW those maps would get played. They didnt mind at all that e1m6 and e3m1 was in the map pool, maps that really did not have good chance to be played at all, and has yet to be played. So maybe the admins made the correct decision after all (maybe that's why they are admins?), even if someone of them were called selfish retards, lamers and dictators?

Oh, and as you all know, we are an admin crew that makes decisions, not only 1 or 2 persons. And I can tell you that when admins don't agree in #nqr-staff, it is not exactly a walk in the park or a bed of roses there either :) And on top of that, we have to do our best to try and please you all, in addition to try and develop NQR.

I expect some ppl to comment on this comment, so keep the discussion alive ppl :)
Horatio - 030331 @ 11:14:52
Well if we start up gamblers again, wich is 85% for sure, we want to play e1m6 next season. But the cmt maps should be kept in the cmt tournament.
Kryten - 030331 @ 11:30:51
the current point system encourages teams to learn the maps. not a bad thing imo, especially if we're introducing cmt maps. as long as the maps are good.
canius - 030331 @ 11:48:58
One thing we disagree on horatio :) I want CMT maps to be in next nqr, although not all of them. Maybe 2-3 would be sufficient.
Link - 030331 @ 12:22:26
Nice to hear horatio and canius, I also want the gamblers back in business. Btw, just of curiosity, why 85 % ? How in earths name do you get that number, how do you calculate that ? :))))))))))))
ok98 - 030331 @ 16:44:12
dont ad cmt maps when u have a own tourney for the clans that wants to lern the new maps. We (#foes) didnt signup to nqr tourney becaus we cant even the exmx maps as god as we want and rather spend our time lerning them.
HangTime - 030331 @ 16:45:53
I've said it twice before; I'll say it again. I dislike the point system REGARDLESS of what maps are played. Take hyphen vs MM game from yesterday, only big3 maps were played. And yet my clanmate still said to me after that point system sucks because losing that dm2 was so costly. Winning 2-1 doesn't really feel like a victory, it's more like "fuck we have lost a map". Actually the more I think about it, the more I prefer Goljats 2-1-0 system to the 4-3-1-0 I suggested. I.e. remove the "bonus point" for winning 2-0 (personally, I consider it more like a penalty for losing a map). IF teams are tied on points, you can still look at maps won minus maps lost to see who is ahead. Clans who manage to win 1 map are still rewarded, but the overall winning clan doesn't feel so shitty about having lost a map.
In fact sometimes I think even giving a point for a map can suck, cos it supports "one-map-wonder" clans rather than clans who are good across the majority of maps. E.g. you could have a clan who plays eXmY all day but are ubershit on all other maps, and end up losing all their games 1-2. In a division of clans, this would give them 9 points, placing them above a team with e.g. 4 wins and 5 0-2 losses. Anyway, it goes back to my original philosopy that overall victory should count a lot more than individual maps, since that rewards teams with more balanced approaches than just being good on 1 map. "Personally I think when a clan looses a decider map, it has been a close game all the way," - not necessarily. A clan could win their home map they prac 24/7 by 5 frags, then lose dm2 0-500 and dm3 20-320. Is that a close game all the way?

I agree with the idea about each clan being locked to a home eXmY map, so you know what to expect in advance. That reduces the chances of being suprised; although generally speaking most clans who pick 'strange' maps like axemen and JAMS you know in advance what it will be anyway, your own fault for not practicing.

The reason e1m5 was whined at more than e1m6/e3m1 is because:
a) It was a late addition to the map pool, "convieniently" when Link returned to admin team.
b) e1m6 and e3m1 had been played in the preceeding season.
telly - 030331 @ 17:14:15
I know like we've always been the worst clan probably in the league for taking advantage of less well known maps but I totally agree with Hangtime. Example of the things I dislike with the map system atm is in say a 12 team division, a team which loses all its matches but practice some dodge episode map which they always win would still get 12 points and finish above a clan which picked dm3 and won say 5 matches 2-1 (including beating the said rare map specialists) getting 10 points. It doesn't seem right to me that a clan that won 5 matches should lose to a clan that won none at all.
telly - 030331 @ 17:30:36
ah ht beat me to it etc.
Kryten - 030331 @ 18:38:50
it really depends how you look at it. in an ideal world we shouldnt have any "dodgy" maps in the map pool, in which case clans should be able to play on them all :)
oCoiNi - 030331 @ 18:56:55 many comments, dont have time to read them all ;) I think that even though a map isent being played, a tournament shouldent restrict the selection of that map. Even if no-one is playing on it. So I think ALL (reasonable 4on4(no endif etc)) maps should be an option.
FlePser - 030401 @ 01:04:05
manu - 030401 @ 07:25:31
To Strife, i just need to comment yer post: Foes used e2m7 as a homemap in the early hpw-days in sweden. So if u refer to us when u say that other clans followed yer mapchoice, u have to think again. kram / manu
Icce - 030401 @ 11:41:14
Nice activity here..good views and arguments from many players =) This points system issue can be viewed in many angles, that's for shure. As I see it the current system is good if we want clans to learn and play more maps, because the hunger for points encourage clans to actually "force" themselfes to prac more maps then the big 3. On the other hand a system where you always get full gratification in victorys and also get rewarded for 1 map win is tempting too. Can we find something in between then? Well...perhaps, take a look at this: If victory always gives 3 points, regardless of 2-0 or 2-1 result. One map win always gives 1 point, and no map win at all gives 0 points. The gape between the most skilled and medium skilled clans wouldn't grow out of propotion with such a system. The impact of 1 map win isn't as big either if you compare it to our present system or Goljat's 2-1-0 suggestion. What are your reflections about an 3-1-0 system?
Offbreed - 030401 @ 14:18:25
"I can honest say that my clan (EQ) choose e2m7 to be our homemap mostly because so few knew the map at the time..." tFF hade e2m7 som hemma bana p? hpw tiden, s? snacka inte skit om o h?rmas.. eller kanske ?r fler som har e2m7 ?n v?ra klaner
Strife - 030401 @ 14:37:33
Offbreed, ja exakt.. det ?r inte bara er och v?r klan som har e2m7, s? jag menade inte er.
Strife - 030401 @ 14:41:38
And btw, why are we talking swedish? To manu: I have no idea what homemaps other clans have, and I dont care, I did not mean to accuse you for it or anyone. I just got that impression, sorry, my mistake.
Link - 030401 @ 15:26:58
First I want to answer on the neverending e1m5-whining from HangTime (along with some other division 1 players too).

Yes, when I got back in the admin crew, due to my long time offline, then I started to argument for e1m5 and e3m7, that had been taken away. Why? because I knew that by doing so we would take homemaps away from clans that wanted those maps, and I thought that was lame. I dont think that a map that has not been played at all the previous season, should matter at all as an argument when you know the map will be played in the upcoming season. That is just a poor and lame excuse, in fact, it pisses me off that ppl are so selfish. You really think it is better to have maps in the pool we know will not be played, than not having maps in the pool we know will be played? Why do you want that? I thought a map that got played was an "accepted" map, maybe I am wrong then. Would you accept it if in fact The Axemen HAD played in NQR3, and by that the "was-not-played-in-previous-season" argument would not exist. What would your argument be then?

Ok, so I play in The Axemen, and I love e1m5, and I am an admin. That does not matter at all, if I had played in some other clan and they wanted another homemap, The Axemen would have STILL wanted e1m5 as their homemap, just as fnu wanted e3m7. I am not in fnu am I? And if you think that I have a too strong "vote" when it comes to admin issues, then you really are saying what you think about the rest of the admins. Well, bg to that, we are an admin crew with equal votes, just in case you forgot that along the way. That e1m5 and e3m7 got in "late" in the rules page was just dawdling from the admins, and we are sorry for that. But would it matter? If the maps had been in early on, would you turned around to your clanmates and said: "Ok boys! It is e1m5 prac time! prac e1m5! prac e1m5! prac e1m5!" I doubt it very much, ok? :) If you got some other arguments, then you will not just argument against e1m5, but vs all other maps too that are "bizarre" in your eyes. But that's fair enough, again it comes down to personal map taste, and that is what ppl are posting here.

When it comes to the point system, I see good arguments for the new suggestions, but I see flaws too.

The 1 point per map system, 2-1-0 system, will infact make it better for those clans who specialize them self on just one map. They will infact be even closer to all the clans that manges to win a lot of 2-0 games as well. I think this is good, because it makes the divisions even closer than it is today, just my personal taste. This means that clans that always loose 2-1, will for sure not be relegated, but they will also for sure never be promoted or make any playoffs. They will be a status quo clan, they will never improve, they will never be poorer. Another thing that comes to mind here is the tvs-blaze argument; "sure no problem for us, we will just take a 20 min coffee break and win random map". In fact it will be advantage to just give away a walkover on the second map, because then you just get a -1 added to your fragbalance, not -100, -200 or whatever. It also means clans dont need to bother about any other maps than the big 3, because the big 3 is the only maps that are random map, and there is no x-tra bonus for winning 2-0, wo why even care about any other maps? In NQR we actually favor the big 3, because of the fact that we use those in the random map selection, and no other map.

HangTime, no matter what you say, I will still think you want the big 3 to mean even more than it does today. We did comprimise already in NQR2 by letting the big 3 be random maps. But apparently this is not enough, you want these maps to have an even bigger impact on the league, and they will if we agree to the 4-3-1-0 point system, because then the big 3 becomes even more important because of the random map situation. Are you willing to accept a 4-3-1-0 system if we change the random map setting, by for example having ALL maps in the random map pool? I would very much like you to say YES to that one :)

NQR is not about just the big 3, even if we give those maps an advantage by the random map selection, a part from that, all maps are equal. My vote will for sure not be that we make that advantage even bigger in favor of the big 3. That has to be in some other league, not NQR, sorry ppl.

Telly: if you loose 11 games (thats 12 teams, 11 games for each clan) 1-2, you get 11 points. If you win 5 games 2-1, you get 10 points. If you then loose the reminding 6 games 0-2, you still have 10 points. The 11 point team have a map score of 11-22, and the 10 point team have a map score of 10-13. So the map difference for the 10 point team is way better, even if they have won fewer maps. All that the 10 point clan needed to do to get above the 11 point clan, was to win ONE SINGLE MAP in one of those 6 0-2 losses. I still think the 11 point team deserves to be higher, they took points in every game, the 10 point clan in only 5 out of 11 games. Remember; this sytem is about POINTS, not about victories or defeats, something that some of you rahter want, you want the system to count victoires, not points. In a league sytem that we got in NQR, it is the points that matter, not victories. In any league system it is in fact in that way, that you are not sure to win it, even if you got more victories. This is because in a most sports/leagues, whatever, you also get a point for a tie, something we dont have in this league. Draws dont exist. We can of course make it that way, that victories are all that matters, but then we cant just have the big 3 as random map, because that means you only need to know those, in order to win it all.

And as I said earlier, NQR is not only about the big 3, that has to be in some other league. And I hope one day someone makes a "classic" qw league/tournament like that.

Conclusions are simple:

If we want the big 3 to have an even stronger advantage, we agree on the 4-3-1-0 system and keep the random maps that we have today.

If we do not want that: We keep the current system or we change to the 2-1-0 system. If we change to the 2-1-0 system, clans who specializes themselves on only one map, will have a bigger advantage then they have today.
manu - 030401 @ 15:51:51
im really not in to this argument but, just have one question. what other clans except axemen have played e1m5 in the nqr history and is there any other map just played by one clan ?
Link - 030401 @ 16:02:52
Well, so if a map is played by only 2 clans, that makes the map much better? :)

e1m5 is only played by the axemen, but many clans played in nqr2 because the axemen played about 30 games. Other maps I think had maximum 2 clans that played them. This season e2m7 is played by 3 clans I think. In conclusion a special eXmX map is never played by any more than 3 clans, at least I think that is highest.

Previous seasons sites:
Link - 030401 @ 16:04:48
"but many clans played in nqr2 " ... it should be: "but many clans played IT in nqr2". Kryten, plz add edit function to comments :))))
Kryten - 030401 @ 16:18:32
no :)
HangTime - 030401 @ 17:03:16
Icce: 3-1-0 system would be fine with me. That makes 2-1 'victories' less depressing and still rewards clans who win single maps. I guess based on this season, you could say I am biased because my clan has mostly 2-1 victories. As link says, it's a question of whether you want victories or 'points' to matter most. Personally I prefer the former, but if NQR wishes to play down the importance of victories then I guess 3-1-0 system is bad...

To back up my claim about 1-2 clans being highly successful under current point system, look at NQR division 1. Axemen are in 2nd place, and the statistic in the table which stands out most compared to all other clans is the 'Games lost 1-2' column. All the other teams in the top6 have a superior 'map difference' and 'frag difference'.

Link is probably right that I want the big 3 (TB3) to have big importance, I think it's a good established base on which to build. As I have said before, I'm not opposed to playing more maps (afterall who showed you e2m7 and androm9?), but I wan't the 'balance of power' to remain with clans who are successful on TB3.

"You really think it is better to have maps in the pool we know will not be played, than not having maps in the pool we know will be played? Why do you want that? I thought a map that got played was an "accepted" map, maybe I am wrong then" <== if that is your argument, then there is no excuse at all for denying dm6 as a map. FAR more clans want dm6 than e1m5, it gets played in other leagues, so by your logic, it is an accepted map. Your opinion is that dm6 isn't suitable for 4on4 and hence is excluded. That's the personal map taste you talk about later. What makes you right and the dm6 supporters wrong? Other clans have had their home map stripped away, like qh (e4m6). I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why it's acceptable for axemen to rape most people on e1m5 but it's not ok for QH to rape most people on e4m6.
Link - 030401 @ 18:00:10
HangTime: lol....just LOL! Axemen got 4 wins, THE SAME as SR, CMF FS and Hyphen. So why is it so strange that they are above those clans????? LOL! (wtf, I actually took you for smart lad). You think that Axemen got 9 games already played GOT SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT ? ... lol

And btw HT, you should be REALLY HAPPY to be in div. 1; div 1 clans only have to know 4 maps: big 3 and e1m5. So it is by your standards the best div. to be in, only ONE CP map to play! (but even thats hard to prac on a little I guess). Still you complaint - lol :)))

"balance of power" is big, nice way to put it :) 3 maps only is not a "balance of power" to me.

And about what maps we got in NQR, that I have said so many times before, the map also needs to have a map design that is good for 4on4. For the 234234 time; that is why not dm6, e2m5 (plz show me the secret room with the grappling hook), e3m4, e4m6 and all the rest of the no-good-design-for-4on4-maps are in the map pool.

Is that hard to understand?
Janozh - 030401 @ 18:19:02
yeah look at the number of games we have played before u go on like that... FFS HT! this is just sad.
HangTime - 030401 @ 19:25:01
Yep, I do think Axemen's high number of played games has something to do with it. I was trying to illustrate the effect 1-2 losses has by comparing with the overall status of the clan (map difference). I never said it was "strange" that axemen was above over clans, I merely stated the facts. WTF, I actually took you for somebody who could read! ;)

Btw I have TWO cp maps to play in div1 (so far, dunno what maps future games will hold), e1m5 and dm2. The point about praccing e1m5, is that if only axemen is choosing it, practicing it is a waste of time. If we played 5 or 8 prac maps on e1m5, we still wouldnt have anywhere near the experience or skill on it of axemen. And that's wasted prac time which could be spent improving on other maps which are played much more frequently. This was something we discussed, it was DECIDED to not waste time practicing for a single map across the whole season of NQR, that would almost certainly be lost anyway. The only clans that can beat Axemen there are the ELITE clans who have a madskillz overflow, so much so that they can overpower the more experienced axe players. Hyphen doesn't outskill Axemen enough (if at all) to beat them on a map they have played 30 times unless we spend a very very very very long time practicing it, which would leave no time for the more frequently played maps. Understand now?:) At least with maps like e2m2, dm6, even e3m3 etc we have some knowledge and playtime there from previous leagues so it's not totally hopeless. We did play an e1m5 prac BTW, just to test the water and see how hopeless things would be.

You didn;t really say anything new about dm6, just that you think it isnt suitable design for 4on4 (heck, i already stated that in my original post). What I'm saying to you is, if maps like dm6 are enjoyed in 4on4 by so many players what is so wrong about playing them? I have more fun and more teamplay on dm6 than an eXmY map I have very little experience on. Surely part of the "suitable design for 4on4" factor must go into the enjoyment they provide the players?

If I was forced to play a lot of e1m5, like I was with dm2, then of course the knowledge would increase, and I would enjoy it more, teamplay improves and so forth. E.G. in some mammoth season, where all clans plays all clans on all maps! (this is great, if a little time consuming/unlikely idea), That would rock, clans would really have incentive to be good on all maps since you play each map the same amount. I don't think e1m5 is a quintessential bad map for 4on4 - that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying the circumstances of the league makes it a little frustrating sometimes :)

N.B: I hope people don't think I'm being too critical of NQR in this thread, I think it's a good, enjoyable league and well done admins etc. I just like these kinda tame discussion/arguments, where you can get to see how people feel on different issues.
HangTime - 030401 @ 19:25:52
100th post!!!!11

Janozh - 030401 @ 19:47:31
yeah u got a point. but at the same time alot of players from respected(?) clans like fs, ds and cmf have said that they enjoyed playing the map. At the same time i find it pretty strange that mrlame is playing for hyphen.. when he already played for another clan in the SAME division.. and helped them win againast cmf for example... its ok with me.. but i just find it strange.
Janozh - 030401 @ 19:48:01
sorry for my spelling errors.. bah i suck.
PreMorteM - 030401 @ 19:54:40
TiMMi - 030401 @ 20:13:30
I think the map issue is a interesting issue. Im a oldschoolplayer, played back in 97, when it was all about picking the lamest map, so the challenge would be the easiest. That was seriously fun. We won all the time on our map, against good clans. :) Then I had a break, and came back in fall 98. Then suddenly it was all about dm3 and dm2 (and e1m2 and e3m7). I was a true n00b on dm3, so our clan picked e3m7, and won every fucking match on that map. (Even -FF-) :) Now Im back, and even e3m7 is out of the accepted list of maps. Okay, too bad, I thought, but no problem. dm3 and e1m2 is fun anyway. But its sad that its all about beeing best on these 3 maps. Look at us, we win on almost every other map. No disrespect to disorder, but they got really owned on e3m7. Of course, perhaps they didnt take it too serious.. But how come we're so much better than "elite" clans on other maps? Is it because we have a more acceptance for strange/new maps? Or is it because swede sucks on everything else than tb3, and they managed to fool the community into always playing those maps? Im not drawing any conclution in this issue. I just think people should face that its more maps than just tb3, and that overall-skill is about the whole directory, not just tb3. If Coulthard OWNS on Monza, it doesnt make him a F1-champion, does it? :)
TiMMi - 030401 @ 20:14:41
Haha, so cool. Here you have the ability to make "room" in your text, but not when you write a match report. :)
TiMMi - 030401 @ 20:20:32
But in a match report, you can go back and edit, not here. :(
Icce - 030401 @ 20:22:30
Janozh what's strange about mrlame playing with Hyphen? All clans have their right to do 2 playeradds during regular season (rules). I think its good he plays in div 1 instead of laming around in div 4-6. ^J^
HangTime - 030401 @ 20:52:55
Janozh I agree, players shouldn't be allowed to change freely between clans, maybe make them sit out 2 games or something before they are eligible to play. But the rules say Mrlame can play for us without any problems, so thats what happens.

Timmi: Maybe some people think Monza, Silverstone and Monaco should be the only circuits in F1, and if that were the case, maybe that would help him be F1 champion :) But, I think its not really far comparison anyway since the different in tracks in f1 is hardly comprable to the difference in QW maps :)

As you say, in old days all kinds of maps got played, and over time this shrank to the dm2/dm3/e1m2/e3m7 you describe (in UK it was dm2/dm3/e1m2/androm9/ukcldm2, in germany tb3+dm6 etc). I think part of the reason for this, is that these maps were well known to the players from FFA servers etc, and also because they seemed to make good 4on4 maps. When I watch games on maps like e3m7 between really skilled clans, it just doesnt seem to have the same class as a dm3 or e1m2 game. In my view, e1m5, e2m2, e2m7, e3m3, e3m6 could all become "ok/good" maps for 4on4, if clans really played them a lot - and they need to be *FORCED* to play them. But they still won't match up with dm3, I think. Maps like e3m3, e3m6 have slightly different style (cs camping one side of map etc) which most players brought up on TB3 aren't used to. Anyway, I think the reason Axemen do better on 'bizarre' maps is because one of the elite clans' advantages, experience and routine on the big3 is missing. They may have slightly better aim etc, but all their learned movements and l33t jumps are wasted on strange maps, so if the 'lesser' clan has some luck, plays good teamplay and has one or more players who know the map well, then they have a chance.

Anyway, e1m5 isn't a really big deal, only one map, but it really did seem like it was only being brought back for axemen's benefit while other clans were denied maps they wanted, just cos Link says its a bad map for 4on4. Yes I'm aware there are more than 1 admin in NQR, but link has always been the most outspoken about map issues and I expect he had a reasonable amount of input and things to say about it. e4m6 was branded a non-teamplay map, because it has ra/lg/rl/quad/ring/whatever/etc in the same room.... yet QH were almost unbeatable there. Funny that, the team with most knowledge and developed teamplay of a map wins!

Oh hope some people are still reading this thread, just had another idea. If CMT maps are in nqr5, why not have a little "forced competition" where if you want to enter NQR5, you must enter this little CMT tournament/set of games. So then all clans in NQR5 have some experience of CMT maps, that might help them gain broader acceptance. HMMMMMM maybe thats a suxxxxxxxx idea, just spouting random thoughts now.

Another thing I thought about, is would it be possible to consider something like NQR-PRO league, when the NQR-CMT season finishes. This would be a project with only big3 maps, link says he'd like one of those. It would be probably less high-profile than main NQR league, and have less clans entering, but still might be worth looking at. Maybe there could be a poll on newspage, to see if there was interest in such a league? If not, maybe people are happy with just NQR and nothing else, thats cool, but we could test the water and see how many clans might like to see such a tournament. I would definitely be interested in helping out on such an undertaking.
Link - 030401 @ 21:15:31
I must have read what you wrote totally wrong then HT, sorry mate =)

More tournaments leagues are cool, and if the community only had more dedicated ppl who wanted to run things, nothing would be better.

I think it would have been really cool with many more tournaments/leagues, based on maps. And yeah, if NQR have the capacity, and can get ppl to run things, why not. In addition to NQR why not have NQR-Classic league with big3, NQR-eXmX league with 8 eXmX maps and the already existing NQR-CMT league. All this are just ideas from my head.

Question is, is this too much, do we got the ppl etc. Nothing would be cooler of course. Some ppl want only big 3, some want lots of eXmX, some wants CMT, some wants a mix of everything.

But as HangTime states, no matter how the map design looks, no matter how "lame" the map can be etc., some ppl will always know a "bizarre" map or whatever you like to call it.

On thing I think is really sad though, is that ppl dont really understand that quality of the CMT maps. FFS ppl, those maps are made for 4on4, regarding item placements, powerups, balance and....everything. I just think it's sad that ppl dont even give it a chance and play a map 4-5 times.

Kind of sad that the QW scene is the only scene that dont really try to get in very good custom maps. Instead we like to spawnfrag a poor dude on dm2 and scream: FUCKING OWNED!
HangTime - 030401 @ 21:29:28
I'd be happy to spend time learning CMT instead of raping n00bs @ dm2, but the problem is, most clans who want to play cmt maps are good at them or elite clans. Like if an experienced CMT clan challenges us, it's a waste of time, we just get owned (we have pracced CMT3 with FS a few times to prepare for clanbase). Well not total waste of time, you learn a bit of course, but it's not much fun.
Link - 030401 @ 21:50:23
Just an example: let say you were forced to make a choice, to play cmt maps or eXmX maps, what would you do? :)
HangTime - 030401 @ 22:00:00
Depends if there were any restrictions. If it was any CMT or any eXmY, I guess CMT, cos there's fewer maps to learn. if it was from say 8 or 10 eXmY, including the ones I know, I'd pick them.
Kryten - 030402 @ 10:09:59
HT, you seem to be totally against spending time learning maps. That sums up that poor attitude to new maps in qw-scene imo. My clan are by no means elite as you know, but we entered CMT league, got messed up on a few maps, but then started to get good at them and had some really good games. Believe it or not, it was actually fun. I don't like the idea of splitting things into CMT-pro/CMT-eXmX/CMT-blahblah at all.
Janozh - 030402 @ 10:25:54
thx kryten
HangTime - 030402 @ 16:47:56
Dunno how you can say that Kryten, maybe you haven't read everything I wrote. If I was totally against spending time to learn new maps, why would I be suggesting that all clans wanting to enter nqr5 must play in a little set of CMT games? I'm just not the type to click my fingers and say it's as easy as that for 70 clans to learn 5 new maps just like that. The 4on4 QW scene in my country is almost totally dead, not all servers have cmt maps, not all clans are willing to play cmt (we tried to practice cmt3 in preperation for clanbase). As I said earlier, time is limited. If I lived in sweden, with 13ms and no job so I could just sit playing qw all day then learning new maps wouldn't be such a problem. But with limited time to spend online, and bad ping in scandinavia, I prefer to maximise it in guarenteed enjoyment by playing maps like dm3. Don't forget it depends what kind of clan you play in. I have played mix games on CMT before, but some (at least 1) of my clanmates didnt even have the maps when we were going to play a prac on one or two of them. Stick me in a clan like Slackers and I could probably learn and play these maps a lot easier. Again, time is a factor. We decided to prioritise on the most played maps: dm3-dm2-e1m2. That's the most efficient use of available prac time, usually.

Big problem in QW scene, people assume that the views of others are black or white (myself included sometimes). Pro-mqwcl or anti-mqwcs. For or against new maps. Smackdown or NQR. It's not that simple. People say I don't think e1m5 is a good map, but I do. People say I'm opposed to new maps in principle, I'm not. Everything depends on the circumstances. Cos I live in England, people think I would naturally be opposed to Nordic-server-only tournaments, but thats not the case either.

I agree, there is no need to split NQR league up as Link suggests. NQR-PRO would merely be an addition to NQR league, not the main event. You wouldn't be any worse off than you are already, clans who dislike the concept of course can just play in standard NQR league. Like I said, see if there is enough interest, I'm not sure there would be but it's worth investigating.
Link - 030402 @ 18:14:45
It really comes down to if someone got the time, dont have to be NQR at all, main thing is that someone takes time to do it.

When it comes to learning a map, it really comes down to attitude and priority. You can't say that HT do not want to learn new maps, but as he says in the above comment, it is all about time and how he want to use that time.

On the other hand, it also comes down to the reason why you want to play qw. Like if you really WANT to learn new things or not. I can only speak for myself, but I really dont have to prac the big 3 much more to understand how to play it. Ok, details needs more pracs, but not the overall tactics.

By saying so I think it comes down to attitude, do you want to learn something new or not? Do you really have/need to play dm3 for the 3455, 3456, 3457, 3458 and 3459 time? Is it hard to sacrifice that so you can play a cmt map 5 times instead? In addition to that the CMT page made location files, a nice map guide picture and some small tactic demos. In addition to that you now got demos of the elite clans fighting on the maps. It is not like it will take AGES to learn the basics of the map anymore.

A good example here is UK clan 4K. Who entered the CMT league with scepticism, as they are clan known for playing on the big 3. They even lost 5 out of total 6 games 0-2.

But even then they infact are saying the maps looks good and interesting, and they have high hopes for them in the future, no whining, even if they loose. I have to say that if you take our "conservative" 4on4 qw world into consideration, and we know how ppl usually whine when they loose on new maps, then it at least really shows me that there must be something correct with these maps.

4K did not exatcly prac on these maps before they played CMT, they entered the leauge for the fun and variation I guess, and chose to give CMT a chance.

That's really all it took for at least 4K to like the maps. It is in fact just that simple.

I think that just shows what state our 4on4 qw scene is like. We are still so afraid to loose, because winning is more fun than loosing....AT ALL COSTS.

It's just about attitude, at least I think it is...
HangTime - 030402 @ 18:30:48
I'm not afraid to lose on dm3, always have fun there if I have competant teammates. But in general you are correct. In retrospect maybe I should have tried to join team playing in NQR-CMT but in general I don't like multiclanning etc...
TiMMi - 030403 @ 09:42:15
Every clan that signed up for NQR, knew the fact that they could risk to play exmx. When signing up, they somehow agreed to do this too. (except for mrlame.) My experience, is that people is kinda negativ, when first to play e1m5. But after the match, its mostly no whining at all, some even like it, some think its okay, etc. I think the community have come to a greater acceptance of "strange" maps overall. And that is great. :) Its a difficult issue, and its nice to see that its not about black and white anymore as HT says. I guess its only tvs-blaze who is totally black. :p
Kryten - 030403 @ 10:24:54
It seems to me that the age of the qw scene does count against it when it comes to accepting news maps etc. I've recently played a couple of other games competitively (namely sof2 and ut2003, although soon got bored and gave up) and find that people in these scenes are much more accepting of news maps/mods/patches etc. But I guess that is to be expected as we've been playing the big three for years now. Still, I'd like to see slightly more open-mindedness :)

I don't want play *only* the big 3 forever - whats so special about them? Sure they're good for 4on4, but so are (some of the) CMT maps. Why can't it become 'the big 4' with dm2/dm3/e1m2/cmt3 .... and maybe more.
Link - 030403 @ 12:33:48
The big 3 is special because ppl know them prolly better than other maps. Why? Because the 4on4 QW community has "forced" that upon ppl. For what reasons dont matter, it's just what happend (why not just blame the [9] vs DR games :p )

As I see it, if we dont bring inn CMT maps now, when then? We gave the chance to ppl to learn CMT maps by having a league for it. Why did not more clans take that opportunity? Because new maps suck? You think they will reconsider if we make CMT-league #2? Not as long as other leagues are around, like NQR.

Anyway, what's the point of having any other maps than the big 3 anyway, if we dont take the time to learn other maps?
Strife - 030403 @ 13:15:26
I want dm2, dm2, e1m2 and cmt1-5 to be in NQR5. Thanks.
Strife - 030403 @ 13:43:26
I want dm2, dm3, e1m2 and cmt1-5 to be in NQR5. Thanks.
HangTime - 030403 @ 14:14:56
Timmi: Yep, the rules are laid out beforehand when you decide to enter leagues, which is why I have always abided by them and never said that teams shouldn't be allowed to pick maps from the pool. If I was in Axemen, I would take same approach as you and pick e1m5. Just like my old clan Denial, used to pick e2m2 for some games in smackdown and NQR2, because we felt it gave us a tactical advantage, even though I view it as an inferior map to dm3.

How about NQR5 with dm2 dm3 e1m2 cmt1 cmt 3 cmt4 e2m2 e2m7 e3m3 and maybe a few additional eXmY/CMT maps if enough clans demand them? That's 9+ maps which is plenty
Icce - 030403 @ 15:01:51
A mix of exmx and cmt-maps containing 8 -10 maps is probably the way to go here.
Link - 030403 @ 15:10:05
That still leaves out maps that ppl want, maps that are not "superior" to the maps already inn. In other words some clans gets it their way, and some not.
tr0ll - 030403 @ 15:12:37
I thought a good player mastered all maps in Quake. But this is like a hardcore pornstar who only knows how to fuck in three positions...
Link - 030403 @ 16:47:25
Ye, hardcore pornstars and qw players got SO much in common :)
TiMMi - 030403 @ 18:19:22
But nevertheless, he's got a point. :PP
Icce - 030404 @ 09:31:04
Hehe..good one tr0ll (^?^)
fanti - 030413 @ 15:46:36
Link, when are you going to dig up the 45 000,- NOK you stole from me. Kinda lame to care about those map issues when you clearly have IRL issues to be dealt with. How long is the QW community going to accept this lameness? For you others, I understand this is *spam*, but I will continue to remind Link now and then how much of a fuckup he is. You would do that too if he stole 45000 (6200 usd as of today] from you. Thank you for understanding. I love you all. Except Link of course.
ZkilfinG - 030421 @ 18:37:38
Much to read on here ;) but many good arguments. Link is saying that it's a problem that "some clans might not get to play their 'homemap' and some will. The only way to let all clans play their homemap is to let clans select a map when signing up. However what maps are they going to choise from? All eXmY? CMT? Other custom maps? And so on. As I posted in an interview thread winning 2-1 against a clan because they play some "bizarre" map isn't unfair since other clans will also lose (that is if they're not good enough). I like an even league where the best overall clan wins. It's hard to compare qw with other sports (and porn) since different maps have a greater impact than in most other sports. I don't think 2-0 and 2-1 should give the same score since there is a difference. And if you start talking about how even games in themselfs where we should count frags only, and I don't think we want that ;) 4-3-1-0 is an alternative to concider. It gives the winning team an edge regardless of 2-1 or 2-0 but there is still a difference. I think the current system is probably best though. As for my view on maps, well I haven't played any of the CMT but the sound very interesting. TB3 should always be there of course. And some eXmY are quite good and have been around and played a lot. Perhaps the suggestion to have different number of maps in different divs isn't so bad. The more you advance the more maps you must know. There's no real point in a newbie clan beating a good clan on eXmY. I don't think clans should get to choise ANY map. If the top clans both specialize in a eXmY/CMT/whatever map they should both win their map, then the best TB3 skill wins, and I don't think it can get any better since there will always be different views on what maps etc. So what I'm I saying? The admins should select the maps first of all (and the point system for that matter). And they should make as little change between seasons as possible. The goal of course is to find the a mappool that everybody can accept (more or less). Drop 1-3 eXmY maps that aren't really good 4on4 maps and add 1-3 CMT maps. I suggest you drop more than you add. Also I think it's more fun with one BIG league than many minor leagues. As long as the "side leagues" won't result in clans not playing in the main league it's ok.
ZkilfinG - 030421 @ 18:38:14
damn those linebreaks didn't work...

Perhaps this did?\n\n Or this? (or both)
ZkilfinG - 030421 @ 18:38:41
You really should parse for linebreaks... :)
Icce - 030423 @ 15:07:49
Well Zkilfing it's gonna be some whining whatever we in da crew decide ;-), but we are both gonna drop and add maps next season, that's for sure. Hopefully majority think it's good drops and adds.
ZkilfinG - 030427 @ 02:26:00
I know, and I trust you will do the right thing.
hustak - 030429 @ 19:17:08
dm2 - dm3 - e1m2 is the only ones you need :)
Domin - 030504 @ 15:46:10
forget these shitty cmt maps please... i dont even want to learn those! and i can say that there is many people on same side as i... and other thing.. if we cant use qizmo anymore, how the fuck we can even concidering to play in NL or UK
HangTime - 030506 @ 19:29:27
Domin: qizmo will always be allowed afaik. It's just QWCL that is banned. BTW, Link is no longer part of NQR crew, so this column should be deleted. Thanks.
Firehoppir - 030521 @ 17:57:32
Add e4m6, thats the best 4on4 map just play it more.. fuck you Link you cmt freak 3on3 and e2m2 should stay to they have been standard maps for so long


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