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2003-12-17 Slackers vs. Disorder 3-2 Playoff Final details
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2003-12-09 Clan Malfunction vs. Disorder 2-3 Playoff 1/2 Final details
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  Good cheer at Xmas and some unofficial NQR notions  031224  
 

Merry Christmas and good cheer in the New Year from all of the NQR Admins!

I'd like those few of you who actually read this to think about what I write and to bear in mind these opinions are my own, xhrl's, and are by no means official NQR policy. I would like to offer the suggestion that in NQR 6 we use a five map pool through the regular season and then shorten it to the big3 for the playoffs. Please post your views on this in the comments. The five maps I want to see used are: dm2,3,e1m2, cmt3, and cmt4.

Very few are aware of e3m6tdm, but it has great potential, yet it is untried as far as I am concerned, so it needs to prove itself first in venue outside of NQR imo. But of course you get to offer your opinion on it and other maps, so there is no need to get uptight at this point.

Below I am pasting in my rather long and boring article concerning my views on a smaller map pool and why I reason it is better than a large or medium-sized map pool. So be forewarned that I am defending Ego and the old Villians map pool if you dare to read on:)

Usually the arguments for introducing new maps offer variants on these two positions: 1. They argue a revitalization in qw could be facilitated through the use of new maps; or 2. They claim the original id maps were not meant for tdm anyway and so others could be better used if they were "designed" specifically for tdm.

Respectfully, I reject both points of view in regard to qw tdm.

I will address the 2nd argument first: QW is the beautiful game by virtue of chance more than anything, not by sheer design. How it has arguably become one of the most challenging platforms cannot be attributed to mere human "design"; for there is something more than that at work imo, something like the fortunate caprice in the wonderful design in the natural world...QW has been slowly DISCOVERED and is still being discovered in terms of its gameplay: we are the fortunate inheritors of these discoveries and it is quite justifiable imo, to have an attitude of guardianship or conservation toward the maps which have the set the standards for excellence in QW's gameplay through the years. The maps dm2 dm3 and e1m2 are product of some design indeed...but mostly the product of very fortunate coincidence in all the layout and item elements; for more than anything else, these maps are not old or over played at all, rather they are still awaiting further discoveries and other turns of innovation -- for example as seen in the recent dag/def collaboration -- to yet again advance the gameplay of the beautiful game. These maps give each movement or "generation" of qw players some interesting grounds for comparison between each other and help to afford us our standards for what constitutes excellence in gameplay. Such grounds for standards must be removed only with a lot of trepidation and circumspect reflection on what will be lost...and if i am correct much would be. And this argument, if it has any validity, would apply quite logically to the idea of having a small map pool in duels and 2v2 as well. For duels I am very much in fair of dm2,4,6, aerowalk as being the basis for a standardized duel map pool. But this notion about duel map is a bit outside the scope of this present note I am writing, so I will drop it.

On the second point, regarding a revitalization through introducing new maps...this view thinks qw only needs good players to learn new maps and this will de facto, interject some new passion for the game. I grant that this may be so; though to my mind it is not in accord with what has transpired in qw over all these years. In my view, it has not been a passion for new maps to play on that has kept qw alive; on the contrary, it has been a on-going passion to prove oneself on the established maps that has kept qw alive. To be honest, I like some customs for duelling but i don't think of them in same way as i do dm2,3, or e1m2 in qw tdm. I know there are many who see these maps as setting a kind of standard for duel or tdm play...and there is no good reason not to. In fact, if for over 5 years other customs have not won the hearts and minds of qwplayers, this tells us of the difficult to define but yet very real enduring qualities of the maps I mentioned. Other maps, like cmt 3 and cmt 4 especially, have been played and enjoyed; but has there ever been a loud call by players at a major duel to play their finals on one of them instead of the standard Big Three? Nothing more than a whisper has been made...and a quiet one at that. The subleties of the game flow and the tactics in qw tdm are difficult to grasp and to execute, and still more difficult to master when they have to be coordinated by a team; the sense that these skills are easily transferable from one playing ground to another is only half true. Take hockey: would it alter the gameplay much if we re-designed the ice surface just a bit, for example just change the surface area of the ice to make ir smaller or greater? Any good Maple Leaf or Norsemen knows it would change the way the game flow dramatically. Though aim and movement skills cross the playing field boundaries to some extent, the salient point here is that by changing the standard playing fields of qw tdm, what really happens is the tactical dynamics of the game are watered down. Consider the time it takes to become a solid team player on dm2, 3 or e1m2; some players who have played tb3 since Villians 1 are still presently improving their teamplay on these maps; e.g., Paradoks has undergone subtle, and in certain respects, even radical development in terms of his teamplay on dm2. The standard maps are still waiting to be discovered...they are far from played out; it is a passion for these playing fields which has been a huge, integral part of qw's longevity. Most top players I know are NOT bored with the big 3.


In fact, such a great mapper as baby_roo believes that ONLY the big 3 should be allowed in big tournies like SD; his opinion is echoed by many very skilled players as well throughout the eu, na and au. Hence the great need for the re-establishment of Villians! I think the changes in the game flow that occur today are subtle...this old gnarled game, still the beautiful game imo, has the means for its own invigoration within itself. These old maps are part of the means, as they give us a standard by which to compare what is excellent or is still developing in terms of the gameplay or even to compare an individual player's skill development with other players in different time periods of qw history. From year to year one can see how the qw players have advanced and explored the old maps, and even now we can see them still being discovered and advanced in the recent movie collaborations. I think the only two thing qw needs is to re-establish the old clan system of loyalty, honour and mutual respect, as well as to keep the tournaments alive and publicized. The old gameplay, the old playing fields upon which this beautiful game is played, will sell themselves to anybody that is interested in trying it out. One of the worst things you can do is tell a new player that he has to learn the tactics of a multitiude of maps rather the standard big three; not only does this water down the tactical subtleties for the advanced, but also it hinders development in the new player by laying out a weightier yoke for him. Clearly the case for a Villians style map pool has been made.


46 comments.

 

mrlame (195.198.44.207) 031225 @ 07:54:26
fuck only 2 cmt maps? 8((((
     
Goljat (194.251.240.117) 031225 @ 08:12:37
i hope there are 2-4 leagues with tb3 only playoffs, it really owns :)
     
_HangmaN_ (217.211.135.220) 031225 @ 10:21:44
xhrl: "I think the only two thing qw needs is to re-establish the old clan system of loyalty, honour and mutual respect, as well as to keep the tournaments alive and publicized." <--- I agree...
     
_HangmaN_ (217.211.135.220) 031225 @ 10:21:44
xhrl: "I think the only two thing qw needs is to re-establish the old clan system of loyalty, honour and mutual respect, as well as to keep the tournaments alive and publicized." <--- I agree...
     
Hmm (82.151.33.231) 031225 @ 12:24:49
lol? why do I think that nqr always claimed to be the most progressive and flexible league out there. Being different from Smackdown for two reasons: a larger mappool and not elite only. Why are you, the whole NQR crew, trying to change that? It has been going rapidly towards a tb3 league since NQR4 (Paradoks influence?) and that is really bad. I believe there was a vote back then with most votes for tb3+5 cmt+3 exmy but nothing was done with it. And now you, xhrl, want to make it tb3+2 cmt's? I don't understand why the fuck people now think NQR is the top league out here. You know, there is no REAL tournament left these days like Heroes/Villains/Smackdown. Because Smackdown retired (for two seasons at least), NQR became the biggest league, but it is in no way anything like an elite league. And only those had tb3 + 2 maps for the last years. So, if you ask me, and many others would agree, this is a way to change the league into 'the best'. But have you forgotten about the other six divisions? Those divisions without which NQR can not live because that always was your fucking statement: NQR is for everybody. Well you've clearly forgotten that. Just get NQR tb3+5 cmt and some exmytdm maps would not be bad. If people don't want to play them, they don't play them. And with the so hot system you have now you don't even lose points if you lose such a map. Tell me then what the better point is, the clans that want to play another map can have the fun and learning on it and the other clan can win with 2x tb3 and still getting 3 points, where is the fucking whine then about the other clans being able to pick from 2 or 12 maps? Oh wait, the ELITE clans must of course only have to learn two maps, otherwise it's so sad for them losing a map they don't know of newbs. Jesus get a fucking life? Europe needs NQR to have the scene GROW and give worse clans the opportunity to reach the top (eQ for example). Then another league like Smackdown or Villains to have a league for top clans only with backup of leagues like ClanBase to keep the scene more living. Think of that XHRL, you want NQR to be the top league. But NQR was never there to be that elite only league so why are you trying to make it now? A big league needs a lot of maps, and we both know that because NQR beside div1 is these days ONLY for fun (no playoffs or regulation system) and yes probably a lot of fun when you can't choose kenyamaps. Have a fucking merry christmas
     
fix (80.223.30.137) 031225 @ 13:05:52
Totaly agreed with this Hmm-guy.. But also xhrl you once again speak wisely about todays clans..specially elite clans today are so tuned up..there isnt enough of 'div 0' players to make more than few top clans which we have seen in last couple of seasons...
     
lol (83.28.8.88) 031225 @ 13:17:18
Hmm: who said that clans lower than div1 want exmy and cmt? :) besides, now we have TEAMUP to take the same role as NQR had in the beginning. QW needs a tb3 league.Thats a fact. I dont call winning a few maps (most of the cmt or e2m2) by EQ "reaching the top". As xhrl said, tb3 is really the measure of skill for qw and always will be.
     
Goljat (194.251.240.117) 031225 @ 14:31:18
"the ELITE clans must of course only have to learn two maps, otherwise it's so sad for them losing a map they don't know of newbs." I am pretty sure thse 'elite' clans want to play other maps than tb3, but i think its spectators that want to see tb3 when these 'elite' clans are playing against each other. I'll laugh so much if same rules are in next season. "They still don't know cmt/exmytdm maps, so only tb3+3new map (of course you can vote what do you want to play in nqr6:) and of course if you loose one map, that isnt so bad, because you can still get the three points!
     
error (81.224.63.125) 031225 @ 16:20:00
pathetic. teams should be able to play any map they want. since you still can play 2x tb3,why do you care?(pretty pathetic rule too but.........)Links new maps are awesome. I am not sure if any is better than e1m2 but they sure look better than dm2/dm3. flame away.
     
Hmm (82.151.33.231) 031225 @ 17:01:59
lol: It's not about that. And no of course eQ is not top of the pop yet and they did win dm3 of =X= without any problem (probably SR luck). But that ain't the fact. You got the point yourself very well. <br>"tb3 is really the measure of skill for qw and always will be. "<br><br> Now THAT is my problem. NQR isn't around for only that. You need an elite league for tb3 only not a fucking 7 div league. And the way the rules are now you always win if you have the TRUE qw skill of tb3 and even get 3 points. So what is your fucking whine about tb3 only lol, the league is already tb3 based. <br> <br> And please mighty XHRL explain to me: "In fact, such a great mapper as baby_roo believes that ONLY the big 3 should be allowed in big tournies like SD" <br> <br> That was exactly my point. NQR shouldn't be like SD because it can never ever be even something close to it because it has a whole other system and other goals to obtain that SD had. Please think rational and understand?<br> <br>"The old gameplay, the old playing fields upon which this beautiful game is played, will sell themselves to anybody that is interested in trying it out."<br> <br> Do you even have the slighest clue what you are talking about? The old playing fields = exmy. And before that you say that you want to forbid exmy from the league? Well not your fault you were probably stoned when writing this.<br> <br> To make it quite clear, xhrl you have 2 goals:<br> 1) Make NQR a league like SD/Villains BY CHANGING THE MAP POOL.<br> 2) You want QW to change back to the old days.<br> <br> Why do you want to change an all level league then to a 'skill only' league? That map pool will NOT make NQR like SD/V (for the 7th time) because NQR is so huge and has 80 clans that would not be able to compete in SD. <br> <br> If you want this back, get a 100% elite league (AND NO NQR IS NOT THE LEAGUE THAT SHOULD BE THAT ONE) like SD or Villains and have minor leagues that contain a lot of exmy like we played in the old days. Now team/up is having that part maybe Ego can make sure that Villains3 provides us the tb3 skill only league that you want so badly and are trying to accomplish in your so beloved NQR that is never designed to be like that.<br> <br> I've had it again and xhrl please understand that NQR should not be the league that wants to be the elite only. No matter how much you fell in love with NQR, don't try. Remember NQR always had about 18 maps in the map pool? Get that back, that was the start of NQR and that is how NQR should be.<br> <br> And no I'm not Link :P
     
Hmm (82.151.33.231) 031225 @ 17:02:19
Omg I love the coding :L
     
fix (80.223.30.137) 031225 @ 17:45:52
has there been talk about Ego bringing villains back with new season anytime soon?
     
_HangmaN_ (217.211.135.220) 031225 @ 18:00:17
why not only dm4 and only deathmatch 3? Let ppl play what they want to play! Let the clans vote aboute it perhaps, not just div 1 clans, all of them...
     
xhrl (24.80.51.162) 031225 @ 23:01:35
please note: 1. no one else on the admin crew sees things as I do as fas i know. Para would like other maps, as an example. these are just my thoughts, so don't think other nqr admins are behind what I write. 2. hmm has missed my point as regards NQR and other tournies like sd or villians. I think they should be tb3-only, yes. I do not think NQR should go just tb3 through the regular season, and i never suggested otherwise. I am sorry if my writing is unclear in places...but i warned you it would be long and dull:) I just think a smaller map pool makes every clan bring a higher standard of play. 3. your point about a lot of maps being more fun is something I overlooked. Thanks for raising it. However i would contend that many would the opposite to be the case. But that's just my guess, and I may be off-base, because i tend to hang around players who like to play only tb3:) 4. Remember it is not I or any admin that actually sets the map pool; you guys will get to voice your preferences....so don't your nose out of joint. fix: I hope so but ego hasn't talked to me about it...yet:) I think we need tb3 only tournies as well as cmts and tournies like nqr which have various types of map pools....my point here is get across MY opinion as to why the map pools should be smaller than it has been....that's all. good cheer, xhrl
     
fifi (80.222.185.138) 031226 @ 02:00:52
A good discussion here! I agree with Hmm that NQR was never the place for top dogs to battle it out for the throne. In my opinion NQR shouldn't change its concept even though the "elite"-leagues are absent, quite the opposite. Like most people, I want to see the top teams play tb3 when it's time to declare new kings of the world... BUT that hasn't been NQR's job and will hopefully never be. It's time for Villains or some other league to step up and leave NQR for the people.
     
Hmm (82.151.33.231) 031226 @ 11:21:54
xhrl? You don't even read what I write. about your first point: Good that other admins don't think like that. on 2. What you propose, with the same ridiculous point system we have now, the league will as close to tb3-only as you can get. And one more thing, why leave out e3m7 it was played more than both cmt3 and cmt4. A smaller map pool makes every clan bring a higher standard of play? Tell me, SD had 5 maps in the pool, were the pracs and pickups played on e2m2/dm6/e3m7 as much as on tb3? NO of course no. A smaller map pool doesn't higher the level of play, it's just a fact that 95% of the clans will lose of a clan that pracced an exmy(tdm) map a lot. The losing clan will win the game anyway (in your opinion) because the other two maps will be 'the true skill'-tb3. I don't understand you, you think the old leagues had a higher standard level of play because of the small map pool, now I have a little secret: It's because they had only the best clans of europe playing. Oh wow THAT is something new. rofl. You don't think logic xhrl, remember NQR in season 2 and 3 where they claimed to be around to give clans the opportunity to play OTHER maps than tb3+e2m2+dm6 (SD map pool). And now you want to change it back. Totally stupid, and for the 7th time I'm saying, NQR doesn't have the best 15 clans but 90 clans of whole different levels. People don't care about a 'higher standard of play' as cmt/exmy maps would be 1 per game max and not played in div1 playoffs anyway what, very fucking likely, is the only division you watch and outside the playoffs the good clans see NQR as prac, so who cares about cmt/exmy maps in div1 in regular season, nobody. On point 4, I told you before in a previous post about the poll that was held on qw.nu. Actually 49% of the people wanted to have all five cmt maps (out of 89% voting as 11% voted 'other') and did we see that happen? No, so don't come and tell me there is actually listened to what map pool the 'community' wants. No matter what bullshit Paradoks is talking about how good there is listened to the people and how good the needs of the people are forfilled, the map pool will never change. Get a map pool like team/up, tb3+5 cmt+10 exmytdm. If you are a tb3 guru you play 2x tb3 and get 3 points for you win. Then tell me xhrl, who the fuck cares if the other clan, that doesn't play tb3 in this occasion, can pick their map out of 2 or 20 maps. YOU are the one that wants the old days back, IN THE OLD DAYS WE PLAYED EXMY ALL FUCKING DAY.
     
Hmm (82.151.33.231) 031226 @ 11:22:57
xhrl, just please READ what I wrote (read the previous two posts now too) and THINK about it, because you clearly didn't think about my view yet.
     
Nosfer4tu (213.205.85.161) 031226 @ 15:50:59
IN THE OLD DAYS WE PLAYED EXMY ALL FUCKING DAY <---- I agree
     
xhrl (24.80.51.162) 031226 @ 22:45:30
hmm, i have actually dealt with each your points previously. i will repeat this for once more: I reason a smaller map pool to better because it raises the map knowledge of any player, from the new guy to the expert, so that they are not just wandering aimlessly around on of the more obscure maps in a large pool. I never argued that tb3 only clans should care about getting as many points as possible; I said I cared about the higher standard of play. You don't care about a higher standard of play...seemingly. And that is your choice to do so; I disagree. I would prefer to see a higher level of map knowledge and tactics exhibited by a div6 or 7 team than to see an obscure map played. Btw writing with an insolent tone like you have done above just tends to piss me off....if you disagree with me or someone else, then fine, simply point where you do and why. But telling me I don't use logic or that i want the old days back, which clearly neither is the case, earns you, hmm, as a loud-mouthed fakenick, the right to eat the peanuts out of my shit:P munch away...
     
Hmm (82.151.33.231) 031227 @ 12:22:40
1) You clearly still didn't read what I wrote. nice. 2) You want to say you DID NOT write the following? "I think the only two thing qw needs is to re-establish the old clan system of loyalty, honour and mutual respect, as well as to keep the tournaments alive and publicized. The old gameplay, the old playing fields upon which this beautiful game is played, will sell themselves to anybody that is interested in trying it out." Please take the time to read my crap and think of the arguments I use. Apparently that is hard? And everybody knows the exmy maps, and probably 80% of the scene knows their tactics.
     
fifi (80.222.185.138) 031227 @ 14:18:32
Hmm: people might know some basic tactics for exmy maps yes, but on tb3, pretty much everyone has a clue where to go from any spawn at any time of the game and clearly, that's not the case with exmy maps because they havent been played 5000 times :)
     
mrlame (213.101.120.168) 031227 @ 14:48:31
i think hmm need to get some reading glasses so he can read what xhrl is writing instead of insulting him with stuff he never said :)
     
Caban (212.76.33.75) 031228 @ 01:14:01
Why only two cmt maps, not three? Add cmt2 to this map pool and I am gonna be very happy!
     
empezar (213.65.59.182) 031228 @ 02:59:51
tb3 + e3m7 and I'm happy ;)
     
btw (192.121.232.191) 031228 @ 05:20:59
Hmm = Purity /dns 82.151.33.231 * Dns resolved 82.151.33.231 to ip-82-151-33-231.kabeltex.novaxess.nl /who 151-33-231.kabeltex.novaxess.nl Purity_ (~player@ip-82-151-33-231.kabeltex.novaxess.nl)
     
ParadokS (130.225.71.251) 031228 @ 10:22:52
What started as a comment... turned into my own column post about this whole subject. Read it @ http://www.quakeworld.nu/index.php?page=columns&user=2&id=9 if you feel like it :) It's called: Future map pools and their meaning for 4on4TDM
     
Eipert (81.8.159.164) 031229 @ 02:15:04
If there's only five maps in next seasons NQR than it would be logical to include them all in randommap and in the playoffs.
     
ParadokS (130.225.71.251) 031229 @ 04:50:10
exactly :) And I think a positive effect of that would be that those 2 other maps would be played a great deal more than all the other non-tb3 maps put together.
     
FlePser (194.109.80.74) 031229 @ 12:18:09
i liked nqr2 the most of all leagues i've played! why? cause i could play e2m5 and win vs the better clans, and loose against worste clans on maps i've never played 4on4 before. Anyway i'm a exmx fan and I don't like them to be removed from my beloved NQR league
     
FlePser (194.109.80.74) 031229 @ 12:21:02
and it's not about how much those maps are played, but about the possibility to play them ! tb3+5cmt+allllexmx maps! that's najs!
     
Harvester (130.233.220.23) 031230 @ 11:46:16
How about following: - Any exmy map can be chosen - Clans cannot choose same exmy map twice This method was used in Finnish eXmY league.
     
hANGtIME (212.140.173.250) 031231 @ 13:42:21
Nice idea harvi, I was considering something similar for the UKCL league. This means you would get a wide variety of maps played, but you can choose what opponent you have to face on each map. So you might save your "best" map to play against a very strong opponent.
     
tranq (192.128.252.68) 040102 @ 18:05:25
We want some 1v1 and 2v2 leagues. Where are they ?
     
ZkilfinG (217.215.198.51) 040104 @ 22:49:30
I agree that NQR should not be TB3 only. One other thought that struck me while reading this is this: wouldn't it be fun to have a series of small leagues where only a single map is played (not TB3). That way it could be determined which clan is "the best" on that perticular map. I guess most of the clans wouldn't want to play in such a league, but that's only good because imo it's best suited as a small league that will end quickly (and then move on to the next map to see who conquers that). This would also help clans learn "new" maps quite a bit since they're forced to play it.
     
Domin (62.78.219.62) 040106 @ 14:55:57
How about if we forget these cmt maps, those really suck..
     
zooooooooooom (192.128.252.68) 040106 @ 16:11:53
and what if someone had an idea. and we discuss about it. and insult eachother. and don't do anything.
     
Max Rebo (217.209.160.186) 040107 @ 18:44:25
Harvi, we also used that system in a few QWCTF-leagues, it really worked nice there because we had all the EXMX-maps and 16 CTF-maps to choose from.
     
Apollyon (62.206.113.178) 040107 @ 20:38:33
Bring on NQR6 already!
     
error (81.224.63.125) 040108 @ 23:05:34
I have changed my opinion about maps because of Paradoks column(nice column). We should try to find good tdm maps and enforce them. However we should play them extensivily in other leagues than NQR(like links league) to fix any obvious flaws or just forget about them entirely. Btw dm2 would be more intense with an easier rj to tele-high.
     
Diki (62.73.39.164) 040110 @ 01:07:33
I think exmx maps sucks a lot but cmt maps are ok :C
     
Psycho_Dad (213.66.212.35) 040110 @ 19:02:59
When does nqr6 start?
     
xhrl (24.80.51.162) 040111 @ 03:27:20
pyscho_dad, will tot be playing this season in nqr? btw, you can. expect an annnouncement toward the end of january about nqr6
     
Caban (212.76.39.4) 040112 @ 08:21:42
ZkilfinG --> I agree with you. I must say that cmt are very good and I just love them. Give me cmt 3 season!!!
     
mm (80.212.42.212) 040112 @ 10:34:41
fifi - 80.222.185.138 031227 @ 14:18:32 Hmm: people might know some basic tactics for exmy maps yes, but on tb3, pretty much everyone has a clue where to go from any spawn at any time of the game and clearly, that's not the case with exmy maps because they havent been played 5000 times :) Not easy beeing a n00b i think, but beeing spawnraped doesnt matter, as long as they know they way to RA:)
     
Kryten (194.129.217.113) 040112 @ 11:07:13
"Omg I love the coding :L" - it is purposely done this way because some people thought they were clever and were deliberately messing up the html of the page. And tbh, i started reading your first comment then decided to skip them all ... do i really care what someone who is so lame they actually alias in comments section thinks?
     
cara (213.65.37.185) 040117 @ 15:19:49
i like your 'column'-style xhrl, but i think you guys in the NQR crew ought to make a link or something for the column's as there is on the sd-page, where you don't mix normal news and column opinios. though i still enjoyed reading it alot while my opinions pretty much are summarized in the text.
     

 

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