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Battle Info  2006-03-21 Bronze Cup - Group C - Week 2 (3)

Demolition Crew 2 - 0 Fakin' Idiots

DM3 - The Abandoned Base





W.O. - Walkover




Renzo - 88.113.232.*** 060321 @ 22:51:01
This really shows how bad is the current NQR 3 cup system. The difference between clans can be as high as div3 vs div5 (based on eql3) so it's no wonder that some people refuse to play.

Admins really need to fix this in the next NQR.
Anza - 80.222.234.*** 060321 @ 22:53:56
For some reason I have a feeling that they are not interested
JKova - 80.221.17.*** 060321 @ 23:12:55
of course we are interested in developing the system. thanks for the feedback!
kingiz - 80.221.25.*** 060321 @ 23:25:20
NQR 3 cup system is bad? I'd say that's an understatement. More like, "its pathetic and suffers from horribly bad design just like Microsoft(tm) (r) (c) software". The point of the cup system really should be putting clans on a similar level to play against themselves. Clearly the cup system fails to do this.


So, is this a known flaw (read: just pure ignorance from the admins) or just careless design?

We didn't want to waste our time "playing" 20 more minutes on a match everybody knew how it was going to end. Nobody wouldn't have enjoyed it, not the demolition crew and certainly not us. QW should be fun. This wasn't fun, and I wouldn't call this charade QW.

kingiz - 80.221.25.*** 060321 @ 23:27:38
..um.. the last sentence should have been "this wasn't fun and I'd call this a charade, not qw".. you should get the point anyway.
HighlandeR - 83.20.200.*** 060322 @ 00:17:31
i understand fuk's point, not much fun to play for both dc and fuk here.

this design of nqr needs serious tweaking.
HighlandeR - 83.20.200.*** 060322 @ 00:33:38
fuk = fak
sorry :D
gaz - 81.6.217.*** 060322 @ 08:54:03
The idea of NQR9 was to do something different to EQL by focusing on a playoff competition rather than a league. This system seemed like a decent way of helping us place the relevent clans into 6 playoff competitions without a lengthy league stage.

I'm all for constructive criticism but all I see above is kingiz slagging off those who have spent time and effort arranging NQR, without suggesting an alternative system.

I guess it goes to show that it's easier to whine, bitch and criticise than it is to take the inititiative and show some creativity.
Anza - 80.222.234.*** 060322 @ 11:12:16
Gaz, I can see what you are trying to say, only one thing kinda wonders me. Why take clans from lower divs at all to your league as they don't stand a chance? If you want to focus to playoffs then just drop all clans that would not get there anyway... And, also Highlander pointed out that your system is not foolproof, dont take it all on perv (kingiz).
gaz - 195.72.182.*** 060322 @ 11:32:37
At least Highlander put it nicely. Kingiz said "pure ignorance from the admins", "failed miserably" and "it's pathetic and suffers from horribly bad design".

And your argument about dropping all clans that won't get to playoffs is also flawed - why not just drop all but the best 2 and just play the final?

Anyway, your first game was quite close, and I dare say your others will be as well. This is why we have the 'amateur' playoff anyway.
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 11:39:23
Ok, I'll give you some suggestions. Actually I thought my little speech would have given you some directions, but it would seem that all the implications totally missed you.

I'll reward your comments about my "whining" with very simple sentences so don't need to think what I'm saying.

Three cups is not clearly enough to cover all skill levels. Gold cup is for gurus, silver is for pros, and then there's all the rest, including those who don't *quite* make it on the silver level and those who just play for fun. Clearly, there's a need for "metal" cup or something like it. We've played prac against other bronze clans from different groups, and in those games the skill levels are somewhat equal. Just look at the bronze cup group b for example. Chosen is _sure_ to win it. That is just an example.

I'm all for the rules and the playof f competition style, that's not what I'm talking about. It's great that people have time to organize quakeworld competition such as this.

Given that a EQL div3 clan plays with div4 and div5 clans in NQR, is just plain stupid. You simply can't argue against it. And if you think saying the facts out loud is whining, well, there's very little to discuss.

gaz - 195.72.182.*** 060322 @ 12:03:07
Well now you've made some suggestions and written some constructive criticism. Hurray for diplomacy. It's not that hard, huh?

As JKova said we are interested in improving things and will note your comments for next time. Ultimately NQR is NOT a league like EQL with "divisions", just 3 tiers that aim to capture 3 rudimentary skill groups, and I think it does that to a good degree. It would be much worse for clans like yourselves if we had gone with our original idea of a Smackdown rip-off.
Anza - 80.222.234.*** 060322 @ 12:10:50
I guess that this means that QW is not any more a game that one plays whatever the result, like "we take any ol' beating, we just want to PLAY SOME".
- Hmm, so does it mean that QW stopped being better than sex?

Seriously, maybe we just were wondering how admins could have thought that this would work in the first place...
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 12:16:12
No, it's not hard :D to tell the truth it made me feel good about myself! Whee! Anyway, my point was that playoff system is great, but "just 3 tiers" really don't scale enough. Yeah, I know what you are thinking; "well learn how to play, damn you!".. well we are getting there! But it's really frustrating to play against someone with such a wide gap in skills. When we signed up I thought that cup system would really offer some compensation and good games, but in this particular game it really didn't.

I'm not blaming the nqr admins because we suck, only wondering how a situation like this is even possible. It's a hard task trying to arrange the teams equally, I know, but come on:) I'm sure you can do better next time.

gaz - 195.72.182.*** 060322 @ 12:16:44
We were always expecting some games with big scores like this. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have bothered. If it was a league with 3 divisions where everyone plays everyone else, then sure, something would be badly wrong to have this kind of situation regularly.

But the fact is that relatively few games will be "rapescores" and that the lower-skilled clans will get a chance to play vs other clans of their level in the playoffs.

We made it clear that it wasn't going to be a league before the signups opened, so surely you could have guessed that you might have to play some clans that are much better than you? We expected that to happen, but thought that the 'carrot' of the amateur playoffs would be enough to keep clans playing through it.
menth0l - 212.68.8.*** 060322 @ 12:30:12
Placing the clans in the 3 tiers was no easy task and we tried to do it to our best ability. There will always be rapes in every QW league. That's just the way it is with skill differences being so huge in the game. This was just one game and i'm sure you'll have some nice and even games this season too.
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 12:58:00
Since I'm such an asshole, I can't resist to paste this from the irc..

13:45 ( [ServeMe]08) -qw- ui - #a2k.kurwa : what the fuck is happening to the league system? seems like div5 clans having div2 players on their roster is becoming standard behavior. someone fix the divisions, plz :<

while this isn't actually the same issue, it's something similar. I've noticed this aswell, there are some really good players playing on the bronze level. Not only the clans are misplaced, but so are some of the players ;)

The general opinion seems to be (not in the fak only, I'm talking about what most of the players are saying) that only the silver cup is actually a well made one, all the others are more or less .. well, not exactly failures, but "not-so-well-planned" concerning players and clans.

Ok, flame me now! I have my fireproof vest on.
gaz - 195.72.182.*** 060322 @ 13:14:25
Well, we never place 'players', just 'clans'. One swallow doesn't make a summer, as we say here in England, and similarly, one good player in a bronze cup team does not necessarily make them a silver cup team. Look at Jagarna, who have Mogge, a good div 2 player in EQL2, and they are still losing each game.
Hagge - 83.233.145.*** 060322 @ 13:26:40
lol you shouldn't say anything about div5 clans having div2 players since you also have that in the clan ur playing in, kingiz? :)
Renzo - 88.113.232.*** 060322 @ 13:34:26
There is still difference between "div2 player" and "a player that plays in div2". Look at me for example. I play in div2 clan, but I haven't played 4on4 more than 150 rounds EVER.

Why do you think I suck so badly in 4on4 that I don't bother playing other than pracs. Now you need to reconsider Anza's div-skills, because he's maxed out at div3 (no offence anza, but that's how I think).
Anza - 80.222.234.*** 060322 @ 13:42:38
Actually I'm maxed out in div4 after playing 9 years almost daily. And I'm not kidding.
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 13:55:37
umm.. who are you referring to? anza? div2? :D oh christ. I can't stop laughing.

You are acting like I'm making this stuff up and whining about nothing, even though I'm not even whining! Trust me, you don't WANT to see me whine ;) I'm just expressing my (and other people's) opinions.

As you can see, there are people (so it's not all about me!) who really are (somewhat) unhappy about the way things have been organized and that's it. I'm only letting the admins know about things, as they seem welcome critisism and are willing to do something. I'm sure the more complaints they get, the more they will react by improving the system so we can have good time with the game we like. At the end of the day we (players) are the winners by having interesting matches.

I think the best way to measure a successfully organized season is the amount of "complaints" or "whining". The less you get them, the better you've achieved in creating something which people really enjoy.

This only makes admins more aware of recent trends, such as really good players playing on a WAY too low level.

And honestly, anza sucks big time :) mr tp0!

Renzo - 88.113.232.*** 060322 @ 14:04:58
But tp0 (or ffa) is so much fun!

Teamplay is nothing.
Aim is everything.
Obey your ffa skills!
HighlandeR - 150.254.194.*** 060322 @ 14:13:17
maybe admins should go even farther with the changes and make the cup system look really like a cup system.
it is: low-div clans play a group/bracket games. winners advance to next level where higher-div clans join and group/bracket games begin again.
about 3 levels of that kind shoud be enough.
that would mean tho, that the season doesnt start /end for all teams at the same time. lower div clans start it sooner (just like in the footbal cup systems - uefa cup/national cups)
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 14:16:36
Oh, and Gaz; I didn't mean that one or two player qualifies the whole clan as a silver cup level, but more like it's quite an advantage.

Yes, it's very hard to see these things beforehand, but as more people are noticing it, I can't be full of bullshit. This could be an annoying problem (even more annoying than I am) if quite experinced players just join clans on low levels to have easy games.

So all I'm asking, just keep an eye out for known good players who are being idiots by having easy victories and use a couple true bronze level players as a cover.

kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 14:26:36
I like the highlander's suggestion. It's already proven to be a working system as it is really being used in football. It makes the season longer, but hey, atleast when the games really begin, they should be much more interesting.

HighlandeR - 150.254.194.*** 060322 @ 14:53:39
season doesnt have to be longer, coz there'll be less games to play for each team. Just like with football league and cup system lasting more/less same long.
Renzo - 88.113.232.*** 060322 @ 15:00:23
Even the heavens scream when kingiz is playing!
billy - 213.134.160.*** 060322 @ 15:01:46
oh where oh where have the smackdown times gone? where noone whined everyday after losing a game 200:40
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 15:17:51

umm yeah, you just hit the spot there, billy. God I enjoy when people really get my point between the lines, it's always so great to discuss with great minds such as yours. I give up, the only reason why *I* *alone* *whine* is indeed a one match, not the whole concept of a system which obviously has a room for improvement(s). You really nailed the point with your overpowering wits and I have nothing more to add. Damn, what an insightful comment which leaves me naked with a fact that we lost and the only thing left is to whine about trivial matters.


(I think you really need those metatags)
Vertigo - 157.24.219.*** 060322 @ 15:37:13
Clans agree to follow the tourney system when they sign up. If the tourney system doesnt please a clan, they can always stay out of the tourney.

If you got a brilliant concept for a QW tourney, make it happen yourself! This is what the NQR crew has done. You can do it too.

It's an impossible task to form 100% equal groups, where every single round would end with a smallish 50-frags margin. Every single person who has been organizing a tourney knows this as a fact.

40-210 is a normal score of a QW round. Losing is a part of gaming.

There's also nothing unusual to have bad losers in a QW tourney. I guess the NQR's experienced crew will know how to handle this FAK-feedback properly.
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 15:49:11
Ok, for starters, I don't speak for entire team of FAK. Please do not confuse the rest of the clan with me. If you think you can't handle the critic (I think highlander made a good proposition) and feel like I'm whining here without a cause, you are welcome to ban me from NQR.

Don't look at the scores too tightly, even demolition crew didn't play the game with 100% of their skill after the 10 minute mark. Also, you are ignoring highlanders comment totally. It *is* indeed a impossible thing to form 100% equal groups, I'm not denying that fact. Actually I wonder if you bothered to read the whole thread before you started writing your comment.

There have been suggestions to make things better, and to deny that there's anything to improve is nothing more than arrogance.

IMHO this case is closed, the admins have been informed about things I feel can be improved, and if you want to take your revenge on my horrible-oh-so-horrible words on me, go ahead.

Vertigo - 157.24.219.*** 060322 @ 16:04:17
I am not an admin, just a player in NQR.
gaz - 195.72.182.*** 060322 @ 16:04:44
"Ok, for starters, I don't speak for entire team of FAK. Please do not confuse the rest of the clan with me. If you think you can't handle the critic (I think highlander made a good proposition) and feel like I'm whining here without a cause, you are welcome to ban me from NQR. "

Likewise, don't confuse Vertigo, billy or Hagge for an NQR admin.
kingiz - 217.119.37.*** 060322 @ 16:13:30
I'm not confusing them as admins :) never have, never will. See, I have this thing called a browser and one can click links with it, ie. the one on the right which lists the crew! whee! I was talking on a general level.

(I know my style of expressing myself is quite rude and I'm just waiting for the day when I get my ass kicked seriously IRL aswell, but that's life.)

gaz - 195.72.182.*** 060322 @ 16:14:06
The way you were writing scanned as though you were talking to them as admins.
Ari - 81.197.136.*** 060322 @ 16:53:00
well, if i remember correctly, we raped dc a while ago and we are playing in div3 so i just think they had good day on that day and shouldn't be moved
to div3 :< and yes, anza is div4 max <3
Hooraytio - 212.214.218.*** 060322 @ 17:00:15
"Just look at the bronze cup group b for example. Chosen is _sure_ to win it."

kingiz, what do you base that on?
Rohva - 84.250.190.*** 060322 @ 17:02:06
How can some1 whine so much :<
kingiz - 80.221.25.*** 060322 @ 18:10:09
hooraytio, just a hunch. I know a few players there, and comparing it to the rest of the clans in the group that's the feeling I got.We'll see (and if I'm wrong its just a conspiracy against me!).

I'm not pointing fingers (atleast that's not my intention), god how touchy people are. Unbelievable how much attention one gets with a few strong opinions with arguments. I guess it was a touchy subject.

First I was (with cause) flamed since I didn't give any suggestions. When I did, the attitude against me in a group of players was along the lines "well fock off, do your own goddamn league!". Sigh. Brilliant.

"thou shalt not criticize!"

rohva :D

Hooraytio - 212.214.218.*** 060322 @ 18:32:27
i just wondered, i hope you are right =)
lib - 213.100.62.*** 060322 @ 18:39:16
anyone who has seen us in a2k2 (ex kurwas) play would know we're about to take bronze-B by storm. out winning percentage is closing in on double digits!
Vertigo - 157.24.219.*** 060322 @ 19:27:14
Touchy? This was an intresting subject and I wanted to throw my five cents in. Its quite sad that plain opinions are taken as whine or "drama", which seems to be quite popular word nowadays.

Long live the conversation, I say!
Hagge - 83.233.145.*** 060323 @ 14:29:41
there's no doubt that anza is one of the most skilled players as of today! it almost makes you suspect that it's in fact his kid playing for him!?!? omg plz ban anza! ban kingiz as well for all the whine that comes out of his uuuh keyboard? :(
Hagge - 83.233.145.*** 060323 @ 14:29:51
kingiz <3
Anza - 80.222.234.*** 060403 @ 16:43:52
Hagge PLZ my kid says that QW is too childish for him :<<
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